well if thats true, im interested in the facemasks for prodromoi, if you can pm it to me or something if its a big deal
Prodromoi Masks unit questions
well if thats true, im interested in the facemasks for prodromoi, if you can pm it to me or something if its a big deal
Re: Historical Evidences
Isn't that just the extended cheek-guards commonly used in "phrygian" helmets, or a developement thereof ?
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Re: Historical Evidences
hm? im no expert on helmets but i think they have a full face mask, not just cheek gaurds.
Re: Historical Evidences
The difference can AFAIK be rather hard to tell with some of the more elaborate versions of the extended cheekguard/mask principle. I'm pretty sure they could meet in the middle - and it's obviously not a major design leap from that to a solid one-piece face protector.
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Re: Historical Evidences
wow, same arguments I used. What is this? Mind-Meld or something?Originally Posted by Watchman
You like EB? Buy CA games.
Re: Historical Evidences
I prefer to call it "logic and eruditon".wow, same arguments I used. What is this? Mind-Meld or something?
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Re: Historical Evidences
Isn't that just the extended cheek-guards commonly used in "phrygian" helmets, or a developement thereof
exactly.
This was found in Thrace. I understand most people would consider its usage exclusive to the Rhomphaiophoroi or the pezhetairoi, but I don't see a sign or anything on it anywhere that says it cannot be used by cavalry. In fact it had better been, since the cavalrymen of the time went either for the horse or for the face of the rider, as it was the easiest way to get someone off the saddle, aka dead, "go for the eyes". This was one reason why so many Strategoi were one-eyed. (Phillipos and Antigonos I Monophtalmos=the One Eyed are prime examples here)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonus_I_Monophthalmus
Thus, it stands to reason why some cavalrymen would find it ... safe to cover themselves with the same facemasks that some Pezhetairoi or other infantry that Thracians had to protect themsleves.
A counter arguement to that is that the cav. would have to have a clear field of view as cavalrymen often have been known to need. Yet, knights clearly prove that you can have field of view vision without losing protection to the face. The facemask, if anything, has a better field of view than most knight's visors.
and a reconstruction thereof, this one on an infantry "duud".
From those on to the facemask the Prodromoi use, there isn't much of a quantum leap, or at least I cannot perceive one.
Then of course there is also this helmet, also found in Thrace.
Someone could select this for our Prodromoi, we chose the one with the facemask. People could argue day and night whether a "med" cav. unit like Prodromoi are should have a facemask or if it should be restricted to higher echellon units, aka Kataphraktoi, but I sincerely think that this is something that just makes them more interesting if anything.
We chose the facemask, it is fine, it is ok, it is historical, it is based on actual finds on the ground, it is like a mathematical theorem that has many solutions, and we picked the one that we believe is best.
People like it, personally I love it.
I don't think there is anything written on what a unit should be like, or wear. We all have our pre-conceptions true, but some basics remain true. A peltast, for example, CANNOT wear iron cuirass, because for any bigger level of protection that might be offered, he won't be able to "run and gun" worth a damn, cannot futhfill his role aka he is either useless, or NOT a peltast.
It's Ok, though. I guess every other forthnight someone is bound to ask this sort of questions. Especially one with an agenda. It is up to anyone to figure out who has an honest, legitimate question that we can answer, or starts peppering us with non-ending, self futhfilling arguements we can never answer to their satisfaction.
Last edited by keravnos; 06-08-2007 at 18:10.
You like EB? Buy CA games.
Re: Historical Evidences
Truth be told, the way the "close" and "great" helmets crimped your peripheral vision was a problem in a whirling melee, plus they tended to make breathing difficult too. Which is why the hinged visor developed; most people wore it up whenever it wasn't absolutely needed, with the due result that not a few knights caught a stray arrow in the face at some point of their careers.
But the Medieval European stuff can't really hold a candle to the anthropomorphic face-masks of the Asiatic cataphracts when it comes to trading comfort and visibility for protection...
The early extended cheek-guards ain't got nuttin' on that. Heck, most of them don't really even cover the bridge of the nose by what I've seen, and the opening for the mouth is positively gaping.
Last edited by Watchman; 06-08-2007 at 22:59.
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Re: Historical Evidences
2 Quick facts...But the Medieval European stuff can't really hold a candle to the anthropomorphic face-masks of the Asiatic cataphracts when it comes to trading comfort and visibility for protection...
1. It all started with some wax you put on your face. Then some armourers got that waxmask and made it into an iron/bronze facemask. Then it would suit your face forever. This was started in Hellenistic Greece. I agree that the Iranians have had a great tradition (and so do the Romani writers, especially those covering the withdrawal after Julian's death...hint hint) but hey, let's give credit where it is due. From what I have read, I believe that facemasks were started in some Hellenistic state. Then, especially after the collapse of the Seleukids, their facemask makers were used to great effect by the Pahlavan, and the later Iranian state entities up until/ and including the Kiphaq... bah can't find them right, now but I am sufre you know waht we mean
2. Do check this out...
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=7604
You like EB? Buy CA games.
Re: Historical Evidences
The Hellenics may have put the ball rolling, true, but that was the eastern branch of them and in any case it was the various "easterners" who made use of such face defences the longest.
And, frankly, having seen pictures of the things, I don't entirely comprehend how you could see much anything through those little peepholes left for the eyes in most designs - or draw much air through the typically equally minimal opening for the mouth and nostrils.
But given how long they were used, they clearly did their jobs.
Side note: while I don't really see the relevance, thanks for the link - I learned something new and nifty again today.
Last edited by Watchman; 06-08-2007 at 23:21.
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Re: Historical Evidences
Keravnos is correct, the origin of the facemask, especially in equestrian terms, is profoundly Hellenic. Post-Achaemenid Iranians brought their own flavour to this art, which is at the beginning only slightly distinguished from the Greek "bearded masks" but later leans towards a more local "heroism", featuring exaggerated moustaches, and leading into some very elaborate helmet designs made to fit with the mask. When it came to heavily armed Sassanid cavalry, apart from the open aventail, there was the facemask, veils, and of course "browed masks" which combined the best of both worlds. This had a most significant effect on especially Turkic (Gök and Khazars) tribes, and perhaps more astonishing is that this type of helmet has been found in Sweden dated to the Vendel culture. Rûs and Kipchaqs (Polovtsians) would perpetuate this practice for centuries.
"Fortunate is every man who in purity and truth recognizes valiance and prevents it from becoming bravado" - Âriôbarzanes of the Sûrên-Pahlavân
Re: Historical Evidences
Thread split and opened.
Re: Prodromoi Masks unit questions
The image of the man in the full panoply is really close to our Prodromoi mask; however, there are actual examples of the mask in question. Urnamma (his unit, after all) and Paullus have seen it. Although finding the citation in their notes for it or remembering exactly where it was seen is a different matter.
Examples of masks exist, but it seems that whenever you do a search for them in Google all you get are Roman examples, which is frustrating. I seriously can't help but think that it is published in some German or French article from long ago (and you thought you just needed to know Greek and Latin).
One nice example I found is an bronze, Etruscan, ritual helm. The crest holder up top is bent, but it would have held a truly massive crest.
Re: Historical Evidences
Respect.
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars”
-- Oscar Wilde
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks