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Thread: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

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    Default For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    I was wondering for non-Christians, how do you think Jesus did it?

    By did it, I mean, how he became the most famous man in all of history. And he will remain the most famous man in all of history for all-time. Surely this is mind-bogglingly great accomplishment.

    How did he manage to do that?

    Please give as elaborate of an explanation as you can so that we may all come to understand how this could have been possible.

    By the way simply saying he was very charmismatic is not a suitable explanation, as there are many very charismatic people but none of them have or ever will have achieved the colossal renown of Jesus.

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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    well seeing as the Gospels werent written until 200-400 years after his death, the historical Jesus is largely overwritten by his later attributors and various authors of the good books. An amalgamation of various Greek, Egyptian, and Jewish legends and patriarchal stories given to a historical figure who was likely a political firebrand and end-times preacher like the other various Messiahs in his day.
    \
    Besides, the Jesus character didnt really do anything. It was all Paul, who converted to Christianity (although it wasn't called that yet) just a few years after the crucifixion. Paul was instrumental in taking an obscure Jewish sect, stripping away its parochial baggage, and positioning it to become a major world religion. In addition to being a tireless proselytizer, organizer, and propagandist, Paul was a creative theologian who played up the parts of Christianity with universal appeal, notably the belief in eternal life, popularly understood to mean an individual afterlife. At the Council of Jerusalem in 49 AD he also helped kibosh the idea that Christians needed to observe Jewish ritual, including (urk) circumcision, a major disincentive till then.
    Last edited by Zaknafien; 06-09-2007 at 20:45.


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    Boy's Guard Senior Member LeftEyeNine's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    Very simple.

    Rome was the first empire to accept a religion as the state religion.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    And what of this?

    Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF".

    Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    Paul was a creative theologian who played up the parts of Christianity with universal appeal, notably the belief in eternal life, popularly understood to mean an individual afterlife.
    Yet the world hates 99% of everything that Paul said. If you try quoting Paul's teachings to the world today, you are liable to be locked up for a "hate crime". And Paul himself was stoned many times and suffered many other horrible atrocities for his preaching, which shows the people of his day didn't think his message had "universal appeal" either. Paul said most people are going to Hell, so the "eternal life" message of his isn't universal appeal either.
    Last edited by Navaros; 06-09-2007 at 20:56.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    Plus he is ignoring history.

    Tacitus (c. A.D. 55 - c. A.D. 117)
    Annals, book XV:

    Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.


    Suetonius (c. A.D. 69 - c. A.D. 140)

    Lives of the Caesars - Claudius, sec. 25:

    He banished from Rome all the Jews, who were continually making disturbances at the instigation of one Chrestus.

    Lives of the Caesars - Nero, sec. 16

    Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition.


    Julius Africanus (c. 160 - c. 240)

    Chronography, XVIII refers to writings by Thallus and Phlegon concerning the darkness during the Crucifixion:

    On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun...Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth - manifestly that one of which we speak.


    Origen (c. 185 - c. 254)

    In Against Celsus, Origen quotes Celsus, a second-century skeptic, on Jesus. Celsus' view of Christians and Christianity, an article from Bluffton College, contains relevant excerpts.


    Pliny the Younger (c. 62 - c. 113)

    Letters, 10.96-97 records Pliny's dealings with Christians
    And why isnt there more about him from the 1st century?

    1. As far as the historians of the day were concerned, he was just a "blip" on the screen. Jesus was not considered to be historically significant by historians of his time. He did not address the Roman Senate, or write extensive Greek philosophical treatises; He never travelled outside of the regions of Palestine, and was not a member of any known political party. It is only because Christians later made Jesus a "celebrity" that He became known. Sanders, comparing Jesus to Alexander, notes that the latter "so greatly altered the political situation in a large part of the world that the main outline of his public life is very well known indeed. Jesus did not change the social, political and economic circumstances in Palestine (Note: It was left for His followers to do that!) ..the superiority of evidence for Jesus is seen when we ask what he thought." [Sand.HistF, 3] Harris adds that "Roman writers could hardly be expected to have foreseen the subsequent influence of Christianity on the Roman Empire and therefore to have carefully documented" Christian origins. How were they to know that this minor Nazarene prophet would cause such a fuss?
    2. Jesus was executed as a criminal, providing him with the ultimate marginality. This was one reason why historians would have ignored Jesus. He suffered the ultimate humiliation, both in the eyes of Jews (Deut. 21:23 - Anyone hung on a tree is cursed!) and the Romans (He died the death of slaves and rebels.). On the other hand, Jesus was a minimal threat compared to other proclaimed "Messiahs" of the time. Rome had to call out troops to quell the disturbances caused by the unnamed Egyptian referenced in the Book of Acts [Sand.HistF, 51] . In contrast, no troops were required to suppress Jesus' followers. To the Romans, the primary gatekeepers of written history at the time, Jesus during His own life would have been no different than thousands of other everyday criminals that were crucified.
    3. Jesus marginalized himself by being occupied as an itinerant preacher. Of course, there was no Palestine News Network, and even if there had been one, there were no televisions to broadcast it. Jesus never used the established "news organs" of the day to spread His message. He travelled about the countryside, avoiding for the most part (and with the exception of Jerusalem) the major urban centers of the day. How would we regard someone who preached only in sites like, say, Hahira, Georgia?
    4. Jesus' teachings did not always jibe with, and were sometimes offensive to, the established religious order of the day. It has been said that if Jesus appeared on the news today, it would be as a troublemaker. He certainly did not make many friends as a preacher.
    5. Jesus lived an offensive lifestyle and alienated many people. He associated with the despised and rejected: Tax collectors, prostitutes, and the band of fishermen He had as disciples.
    6. Jesus was a poor, rural person in a land run by wealthy urbanites. Yes, class discrimination was alive and well in the first century also!
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    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    I think the 'universal appeal' of Paul's message was that it was egalitarian. You didn't have to be of a social elite. You didn't have to be one of the initiated. You didn't have to be from a certain bloodline. Any Joe on the street could attain this eternal life. If he claimed that most people would still go to hell, it wasn't because they didn't have the option of salvation, but that they chose not to take it.

    Most other contemporary religions catered to exclusive groups, kind of like country clubs today. Christianity would accept anyone and give them a reason to feel proud and beloved that no one else would extend them.

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    Nec Pluribus Impar Member SwordsMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    My working theory is that he first started singing in his local choir, but attracted some attention from local talent seekers who put him through the provincial contests with more and more suggestive songs which he, with his ragged yet dangerous looks and vocal prowess could get across to all those long legged, dark-skinned jewish young ladies.

    A life of drugs began, and Pilatos, one of his dealers, started ripping him off more and more, becoming his producer, until Jesus was so far in debt that he could not pay off. He, then, united all of the band members that have ever played with him, and had dinner. There was abundance of everything, wine, women, good food, and other substances.

    After the dinner, Jesus stumbled down to the garden, and, in seeing Pilatos' men, shot himself to avoid paying. His albums, including the famous 'Neverdie', are owned by the members of the band and are protected by intellectual rights. They can be found at Amazon.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    So are you guys saying that Paul was crazy, and all of Jesus' disciples were crazy? Otherwise, why would they bother making Jesus famous? It's not like they got any personal gain out of it.

    One would have to be pretty crazy to endure stonings and other tortures, imprisonments, and utlimately crucifixions, all for the sake of promoting the name of a dead man who was simply a man.

    If it is the case that Paul and all of Jesus' disciples were crazy, isn't that an impossibly large coincidence?

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    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    As a non-Christian, I think that is a good question, Navaros.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
    Rome was the first empire to accept a religion as the state religion.
    I think that's a starting point. If Jesus had been crucified by an obscure tribe in Papua New Guinea, I doubt we would be hearing about him today. However, it does not explain (a) why Rome accepted Christianity; (b) why Christianity was adopted by subsequent European powers and never really abandoned (except perhaps during Communism).

    Question (a) may best be answered by the historians. For (b), I think there is something about the generality - one might say vagueness - of some Christian ideas that makes them appealing and durable. If an idea is too specific - don't eat pork; don't charge interest; don't kill - etc then it may struggle to endure. But the Gospels are capable of being read in a wide number of ways, from liberation theologists to, well, Navaros. These means a wide variety of polities, societies, economies etc are compatible with Christian beliefs.

    It would be interesting to identify which aspect of the beliefs are the most appealing. Paradoxically, I think it is the Christians among us who can best answer that. Which are the key aspects that draw them to their faith?

    Of the top of my head, the following occur to me:

    - universalism/egalitarianism (we are all God's children)
    - altruism (love your neighbour as they self)
    - non-violence almost to the point of pacificism (Jesus rejected rebelling against Rome)
    - non-materialism (the camel and the eye of a needle)
    - some other specific moral codes: one could almost call them "traditional family values" (regarding parents, marriage etc)
    - spirituality and love of a god
    - belief in an afterlife
    - (if we are to believe Navaros) belief that most folk ain't going to enjoy that afterlife

    I've listed them in the order they appeal to me (and indeed they start to repel me somewhere around the family values). The first three seem almost essential to a decent morality. Christianity articulates them in a very clear way and I think that is why it is so renown.
    Last edited by econ21; 06-10-2007 at 00:52.

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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    History? No historians of the time mention Jesus. Suetonius does not. Pliny the Younger only mentions Christians (Paulists) with no comment of Jesus himself. Tacitus mentions a Jesus, but it is likely that after a century of Christian preaching Tacitus was just reacting to these rumours, or probably talking about one of the many other Messiah's of the time. Josephus, a methodical, accurate and dedicated historian of the time mentions John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate and many aspects of Jewish life but does not mention Jesus. (The Testimonium Flavianum has been shown to be a third century Christian fraud). He once mentions a Jesus, but gives no information other than that he is a brother of a James. Jesus was not an unusual name, either. Justus, another Jewish historian who lived in Tiberias (near Kapernaum, a place Jesus frequented) did not mention Jesus nor any of his miracles. It is only in the evidence of later writers, writing about earlier times, that we find a Jesus.

    God-Man myths were very popular and pre-dated the God-Man of Jesus by thousands of years. They all shared a common format which is that the Son of God has 12 disciples, and is betrayed and killed by a traitor. Popular myths such as the virgin birth, miracles, curing the blind and ill are also familiar and common aspects of these myths. As such, such events were assumed to be true of the historical Jesus. These myths became interwoven amongst the stories of someone who might have been real. Many Jewish sayings became attributed to this character, and sayings of John the Baptist too. Stories about the disciples were assumed to be true and not simply symbolic stories as the original gnostic Christians believed. Once people wrote pseudipigraphically under the names of the disciples people accepted them as true too. The rest is history, but initially is based on mistaken pseudo-historical accounts.
    Last edited by Zaknafien; 06-09-2007 at 21:41.


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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    History? No historians of the time mention Jesus.
    Why would they? I gave you the reasons they would not. He was a nobody outside of Israel and even there it wasnt like they had tv and radio.

    osephus, a methodical, accurate and dedicated historian of the time mentions John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate and many aspects of Jewish life but does not mention Jesus. (The Testimonium Flavianum has been shown to be a third century Christian fraud)
    Is that so?

    Yet this account has been embroiled in controversy since the 17th century. It could not have been written by a Jewish man, say the critics, because it sounds too Christian: it even claims that Jesus was the Messiah (ho christos, the Christ)!

    The critics say: this paragraph is not authentic. It was inserted into Josephus' book by a later Christian copyist, probably in the Third or Fourth Century.

    The opinion was controversial. A vast literature was produced over the centuries debating the authenticity of the "Testimonium Flavianum", the Testimony of Flavius Josephus.

    A view that has been prominent among American scholars was summarized in John Meier's 1991 book, A Marginal Jew.

    This opinion held that the paragraph was formed by a mixture of writers. It parsed the text into two categories: anything that seemed too Christian was added by a later Christian writer, while anything else was originally written by Josephus.

    By this view, the paragraph was taken as essentially authentic, and so supported the objective historicity of Jesus.

    Unfortunately, the evidence for this was meager and self-contradictory. But it was an attractive hypothesis.

    New Information

    In 1995 a discovery was published that brought important new evidence to the debate over the Testimonium Flavianum.

    For the first time it was pointed out that Josephus' description of Jesus showed an unusual similarity with another early description of Jesus.

    It was established statistically that the similarity was too close to have appeared by chance.

    Further study showed that Josephus' description was not derived from this other text, but rather that both were based on a Jewish-Christian "gospel" that has since been lost.

    For the first time, it has become possible to prove that the Jesus account cannot have been a complete forgery and even to identify which parts were written by Josephus and which were added by a later interpolator.

    Read about this discovery here!

    LINK

    The Testimonium Flavianum

    It is not the purpose of this article to address the arguments of the few commentators - mostly Jesus Mythologists - who doubt the authenticity of the second reference. According to leading Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman, the authenticity of this passage "has been almost universally acknowledged" by scholars. (Feldman, "Josephus," Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pages 990-91). Instead, this article focuses on arguments regarding the partial authenticity of the TF.

    Although Josephus' reference to the martyrdom of James is universally accepted by critical scholars, there has been more controversy over the fuller reference to Jesus. The TF contains some obvious Christian glosses that no Jew would have written; such as "he was the Christ" and "he appeared to them alive again the third day."

    A strong majority of scholars, however, have concluded that much of the TF is authentic to Josephus. In his book Josephus and Modern Scholarship, Professor Feldman reports that between 1937 to 1980, of 52 scholars reviewing the subject, 39 found portions of the TF to be authentic. Peter Kirby's own review of the literature, in an article discussing the TF in depth, shows that the trend in modern scholarship has moved even more dramatically towards partial authenticity: "In my own reading of thirteen books since 1980 that touch upon the passage, ten out of thirteen argue the Testimonium to be partly genuine, while the other three maintain it to be entirely spurious. Coincidentally, the same three books also argue that Jesus did not exist." (Kirby, Testamonium Flavianum, 2001). Though my own studies have revealed a similar trend (about 15 to 1 for partial authenticity, with the exception being a Jesus Mythologist), I do not believe that it is a coincidence that it is Jesus Mythologists who are carrying the water against the partial authenticity theory. Even the partial validity of this one passage is enough to sink their entire argument.

    Notably, the consensus for partial authenticity is held by scholars from diverse perspectives. Liberal commentators such as Robert Funk, J. Dominic Crossan, and A.N. Wilson, accept a substantial part of the TF as originally Josephan. So do Jewish scholars, such as Geza Vermes, Louis H. Feldman, and Paul Winter and secular scholars such as E.P. Sanders and Paula Fredrikson. Even Jeff Lowder, co-founder of the Secular Web, recognizes the merits of the partial authenticity theory. (Lowder, Josh McDowell's Evidence for Jesus: Is it Reliable? 2000). Paula Fredrikson sums up the state of the question among scholars: "Most scholars currently incline to see the passage as basically authentic, with a few later insertions by Christian scribes." (Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, page 249).
    What Josephus Tells Us

    What is the significance of Josephus' references to Jesus? Josephus provides valuable, independent confirmation of the existence, life, and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth. Leading scholar Luke T. Johnson offers the following opinion:

    Stripped of its obvious Christian accretions, the passage tells us a number of important things about Jesus, from the perspective of a first-century Jewish historian . . . . Jesus was both a teacher and a wonder-worker, that he got into trouble with some of the leaders of the Jews, that he was executed under the prefect Pontius Pilate, and that his followers continued to exist at the time of Josephus' writing.

    (Luke T. Johnson, The Real Jesus, pages 113-14).

    F.F. Bruce breaks it down thus:

    We have therefore very good reason for believing that Josephus did make reference to Jesus, bearing witness to (a) His date, (b) His reputation as a wonder-worker, (c) His being the brother of James, (d) His crucifixion under Pilate at the information of Jewish rulers, (e) His messianic claim, (f) His being the founder of the tribe of Christians, and probably, (g) the belief in His rising from the dead.

    (F.F. Bruce, op. cit., page 112).

    In summary, Josephus confirms the accuracy of the Canonical Gospels (and Acts) in the following recollections:

    • The time frame that the Gospels place Jesus in,

    • Jesus had a reputation for teaching wisdom,

    • Jesus was believed to have performed miracles,

    • Jesus had a brother named James,

    • Some Jewish leaders were involved with Jesus' execution,

    • Pilate was Prefect and had Jesus executed,

    • Jesus was executed by crucifixion,

    • Jesus was known as a messianic figure,

    • Jesus was the founder of Christianity,

    • Acts' portrayal of James as the leader of the Jerusalem Church is confirmed,

    • The existence of early Jewish persecution of Christians in Jerusalem, and,

    • That the early Christians reported that Jesus was raised from the dead as foretold by the Jewish prophets (based on Eisler's reconstruction and Mason's comments on linguistic similarities).
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    You know who you remind me of Zak? Me

    When I first got here and for a couple of years as well Id think f a position I held and then go to the internet to find something that would back me up. Then when someone would challenge me , bang I would whip out my cut and paste gun and bingo. But you know what? Almost anything you can think of can be challenged by simply typing refute so and so. Ive been burned more times than I care to count thinking my opinion is the only correct one. Thast why I come here to get dissenting opinions. Open up your mind to the light

    YeaH I rarely admit it but nothing in my life has had more of an affect on my view on politics than being on these boards. Its rare when people from so many nations and with such different back rounds get to speak their minds to each other on such matters.

    I think those of you who know me a while here no what I mean though I still have my transgressions im trying to cut down on them.

    Yeah Its just another ploy to get on the most honest list.

    Oh and if there never was a Jesus why did the apostles continue to preach "his" word knowing it would most likely be their death?
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 06-09-2007 at 23:44.
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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    That's the reason I come here, to get other opinions, even if they're wrong :)

    Authenticity

    [edit] Arguments against authenticity

    [edit] Origen

    The Christian author Origen wrote around the year 240. His writings predate both the earliest known manuscripts of the Testimonium and the earliest quotations of the Testimonium by other writers. In his surviving works Origen fails to mention the Testimonium Flavianum, even though he was clearly familiar with the Antiquities of the Jews, since he mentions the less significant reference by Josephus to Jesus as brother of James, which occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (xx.9), and also other passages from Antiquities such as the passage about John the Baptist. Furthermore, Origen states that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ" [1] "he did not accept Jesus as Christ" [2], but the Testimonium declares Jesus to be Christ. Because of these arguments, some scholars believe that the version of Antiquities available to Origen did not mention Jesus at this point at all.[citation needed]

    On the other hand, while this argument asserts that Josephus could not have written the Testimonium in its current form, it also demonstrates, according to some scholars, [attribution needed] that Josephus must have written something about Jesus, for otherwise Origen would have no reason to make the claim that Josephus "did not accept Jesus as Christ." (While the claim that Josephus "did not accept Jesus as Christ" can be based on the fact that he was by all accounts a traditional Jew, this fact would make his nonacceptance of Jesus go without saying; the fact that Origen said it at all suggests a context of Jesus existed in Josephus' work.) Presumably whatever he did write was sufficiently negative that Origen chose not to quote it.[citation needed]

    However, there are other arguments as to why Origen would have said Josephus did not accept Jesus as the Christ and is it worth noting that no "sufficiently negative" Josephus quote has ever surfaced. It may have been Josephus’ silence on the matter as well as his Judaism that led to Origen’s comment.[citation needed] Or it could be Josephus's statement in Jewish War 6.5.4, where he declares that the Jewish messianic prophecies were really about the victorious emperor Vespasian that led him to believe Josephus did not accept anyone as a messiah. Since Origen makes no mention of negative comments by Josephus it can be argued that if Origen had read these comments he would have attempted to rebuke them and not chosen to ignore them in his writings.[citation needed] The fact that he did not do so gives credibility to the argument that no such writings existed at the time, but were a later interpolation.[citation needed]

    [edit] Justin, and other early Christian writers

    The Dialog With Trypho the Jew [3], written about a hundred years after the death of Jesus, is Justin the Philosopher's account of a dialog between himself and a Jewish rabbi named Trypho. In it two men debated about whether Jesus was the promised Messiah. Justin makes no mention of the Testimonium in his efforts to persuade the rabbi, even though: (1) Justin was a noteworthy scholar and was known to have pored over the works of Josephus,[citation needed] whose Antiquities had been written fewer than fifty years earlier; (2) the passage was directly relevant to their discussion; (3) the rabbi would certainly have been impressed by a relevant evidentiary citation from the greatest known Jewish historian.[citation needed]

    Justin also fails to mention the passage in his Apologies. In fact, the absence of references to the Testimonium is consistent throughout the work of the Christian writers and apologists of the years 100-300 A.D. It is never mentioned by any author of those two centuries, Christian or otherwise. This passage is first quoted by Eusebius (ca. 315) in two places (Hist. Eccl., lib. i, c. xi; Demonst. Evang., lib. iii); but contextual analysis indicates that it seems to have been unknown to Justin the Philosopher (ca. 140), Clement of Alexandria (ca. 192), Tertullian (ca. 193), and Origen (ca. 230), although each of them was acquainted with the work of Josephus. [4]

    [edit] Textual continuity

    The interruption of the narrative by the Testimonium Flavium also suggests that it is an interpolation. In its context, passage 3.2 runs directly into passage 3.4, and thus the thread of continuity, of "sad calamities," is interrupted by this passage. The context, without the testimonium passage, reads:

    3.2 So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition. 3.4 About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome.

    However, the ragged structure of Antiquities involves frequent disruptions to the narrative, not least because it was mainly composed by a number of scribal assistants, and therefore this argument is not conclusive.[5]

    [edit] Vocabulary

    The passage 3.3 also fails a standard test for authenticity, in that it contains vocabulary not otherwise used by Josephus[6]

    On the other hand, linguistic analysis has not proven conclusive when compared with other passages in Josephus which likewise exhibit unusual features.[citations needed]

    [edit] Josephus's faith

    It is argued that "He was [the] Christ" can only be read as a profession of faith. If so, this could not be right, as Josephus was not a Christian; he characterized his patron Emperor Vespasian as the foretold Messiah.

    However, the supposed confession of Josephus relies on the standard text. But a recent study by Alice Whealey has argued that a variant Greek text of this sentence existed in the 4th century—"He was believed to be the Christ."[7] The standard text, then, has simply become corrupt by the loss of the main verb and a subsequent scribal "correction" of the prolative infinitive.[citation needed] In any event, the audience for the work was Roman, and Roman sources always write of "Christus", never of "Jesus", which could make this merely an identification.[citation needed]

    [edit] Anachronisms

    Some of the deepest concerns about the authenticity of the passage were succinctly expressed by John Dominic Crossan, in The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Peasant:[8] "The problem here is that Josephus' account is too good to be true, too confessional to be impartial, too Christian to be Jewish." Three passages stood out: "if it be lawful to call him a man … He was [the] Christ … for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him." To some these seem directly to address Christological debates of the early 4th century. Consequently, some scholars regard at least these parts of the Testimonium as later interpolations.

    [edit] Interpolations

    The entire passage is also found in one manuscript of Josephus' earlier work, The Jewish War, in an Old Russian translation written c.1250.[9] Interestingly, the passage dealing with Jesus is not the only significant difference from the usual collations; Robert Eisler has suggested[10] that it was produced from one of Josephus's drafts (noting that the "Slavonic Version" has Josephus escaping his fellow Jews at Jotapata when "he counted the numbers [of the lot cast in the suicide pact] cunningly and so managed to deceive all the others", which is in striking contrast to the conventional version's account:

    "Without hesitation each man in turn offered his throat for the next man to cut, in the belief that a moment later his commander would die too. Life was sweet, but not so sweet as death if Josephus died with them! But Josephus - shall we put it down to divine providence or just luck - was left with one other man....he used persuasion, they made a pact, and both remained alive."[11]

    The passages in question give accounts of John the Baptist, Jesus's ministry (along with his death and resurrection), and the activities of the early church in which it resembles nothing so much as a faith healing movement; they are, however, bizarre in their inaccuracy and distortions of the matters. Lower criticism has concluded that this is an interpolation as other extant manuscripts do not contain it.

    [edit] Alleged fabrication by Eusebius

    Ken Olson has argued that the Testimonium was fabricated by Eusebius of Caesarea, who was the first author to quote it in his Demonstratio Evangelica.[12] Olson argues that the specific wording of the Testimonium is suspiciously closely related to the argument Eusebius makes in his Demonstratio, in particular that Jesus is a "wise man" and not a "wizard", as shown by the fact that his followers did not desert him even after he was crucified.

    Olson's argument is supported by some scholars, such as Marshall Gauvin[13] and Earl Doherty[14]. According to Gauvin, "Had the passage been in the works of Josephus which they knew, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen and Clement of Alexandria would have been eager to hurl it at their Jewish opponents in their many controversies. But it did not exist." Furthermore, according to Gauvin, Eusebius had written in his Demonstratio Evangelica, (Book III, pg. 124), "Certainly the attestations I have already produced concerning our Savior may be sufficient. However, it may not be amiss, if, over and above, we make use of Josephus the Jew for a further witness."

    One of the earliest ecclesiastical authorities to condemn the Testimonium Flavianum as a forgery was Bishop Warburton of Gloucester (circa 1770). He described it as "a rank forgery, and a very stupid one, too".[15]

    [edit] Arguments in favor of partial authenticity

    For centuries Christian writers took the position that Josephus wrote the Testimonium more or less in its current form; until the 16th century, in fact.

    Today almost no scholar holds that position: however, many writers claim that Josephus did write something about Jesus which has been corrupted in the surviving Greek text.

    [edit] Arabic version

    In 1971, professor Shlomo Pines published a translation of a different version of the Testimonium, quoted in an Arabic manuscript of the tenth century. The manuscript in question appears in the Book of the Title written by Agapius, a 10th-century Christian Arab and Melkite bishop of Hierapolis. Agapius appears to be quoting from memory, for even Josephus' title is an approximation:

    For he says in the treatises that he has written in the governance of the Jews: "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders" - Shlomo Pines' translation, quoted by J. D. Crossan

    Pines suggests that this may be a more accurate record of what Josephus wrote, lacking as it does the parts which have often been considered to have been added by Christian copyists. This would add weight to the argument that Josephus did write something about Jesus.

    However, Pines' theory has not been widely accepted. The fact that even the title of Josephus's work is inaccurate suggests that Agapius is quoting from memory, which may explain the discrepancies with the Greek version. In addition, the claim that Pilate condemned Jesus to be crucified and to die has been interpreted as a reaction to the Muslim belief that Jesus did not really die on the cross. [1].

    [edit] Syriac version

    Pines also refers to the Syriac version cited by Michael the Syrian in his World Chronicle. It was left to Alice Whealey to point out that Michael's text in fact was identical with that of Jerome at the most contentious point ("He was the Christ" becoming "He was believed to be the Christ"), establishing the existence of a variant, since Latin and Syriac writers did not read each others' works in late antiquity.

    [edit] Literary dependence on the Gospel of Luke

    In 1995, G. J. Goldberg, using a digital database of ancient literature, identified a possible literary dependence between Josephus and the Gospel of Luke. He found number of coincidences in word choice and word order, though not in exact wording, between the entire Josephus passage on Jesus and a summary of the life of Jesus in Luke 24:19-21, 26-27, called the "Emmaus narrative":

    And he said to them, "What things?" And they said to him, "Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. ... Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory? And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. [16]

    From these coincidences in wording, Goldberg suggests that Josephus and Luke used a common source.

    Goldberg points out that Josephus' phrases "if it be lawful to call him a man," "He was [the] Christ," "he appeared to them," and "And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day," have no parallel in Luke's passage, and takes this to support the position that the first two short phrases are Christian interpolations. Luke contains the phrases "but besides all this," four sentences on the women who witnessed the tomb, and "the Christ should suffer," which there is no counterpart in Josephus' text. [17]


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  14. #14
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    That's the reason I come here, to get other opinions, even if they're wrong :)
    Now there you go again. What did I just tell you? Did I say you were wrong? No, I said you could be refuted. None of us know for sure. Not even these scholars can agree . You just did exactly what I said I used to do

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    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    You Christians are freakin' cultists, man.

    One man is GOD? No thank you to that. I'll stick to my own brand of Gnosticism, thank you.








    Okay, seriously, I think SA (okay, econ21, whatever...) hit it on the head. Jesus is a basically likeable character. Aside from the anti-semitism that was written into his teachings in later years so that the Romans wouldn't get so pissed off at the Christians, Christianity's appeal lies in its broad messages of peace and love. Kinda like the hippies.

  16. #16
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    One man is GOD?
    Thats not what Christians believe.
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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    its not? I think you have the wrong religion then.. lol


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    ts not? I think you have the wrong religion then.. lol
    You better check the precepts of Christianity again. Isnt there one little thing your forgetting?
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    Uh, the essential belief of Christianity is that Jesus is God. Its the sole belief upon which all their construed theology works.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    Uh, the essential belief of Christianity is that Jesus is God. Its the sole belief upon which all their construed theology works.
    Keep trying It will come to you.
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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    I dont know what you're talking about because clearly you have no understanding of the way Xtianity works.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    I thought God was the Father (i.e. old God) the Son (i.e. Jesus) and the Holy Ghost (I don't know what the hell that's supposed to be.)

    In essence, however, that means that Jesus is the earthly incarnation of God, and that is what I object to. One man cannot be an incarnation of God.

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    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    I think it's pretty simple TBQH. It was a 'commonized' version of Judaism that promised eternal happiness after death, esp. for the impoverished. Couple this with the humanity's then ignorant nature (meaning a very superstitious and generally non-scientific view of things), the general masses of poor looking for some kind of hope, some charismatic and forceful leaders, and viola. You get a viral spreading due to it's mass appeal.

    Personally, I think religion in general is crap, but the study OF it is utterly fascinating.

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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    exactly, and the later Roman rulers adopted it just because of its soothing effect that it held on the masses "render unto caesar" and all. Kept people in place for ages ;)


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  25. #25
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    I thought God was the Father (i.e. old God) the Son (i.e. Jesus) and the Holy Ghost (I don't know what the hell that's supposed to be.)
    We have a winner.

    In essence, however, that means that Jesus is the earthly incarnation of God, and that is what I object to. One man cannot be an incarnation of God.
    Many things can be an incarnation of God. I dont think you understand the principle of the trinity.

    But then who does?

    Here give it a try
    The fact that in Latin and Alexandrian theology the Holy Spirit proceeds (proeisi) from the Father and the Son in their consubstantial communion does not mean that it is the divine essence or substance that proceed in him, but that it is communicated from the Father and the Son who have it in common. This point was confessed as dogma in 1215 by the fourth Lateran Council: "The substance does not generate, is not begotten, does not proceed; but it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, the Holy Spirit who proceeds: so that there is distinction in persons and unity in nature. Although other (alius) is the Father, other the Son, other the Holy Spirit, they are not another reality (aliud), but what the Father is the Son is and the Holy Spirit equally; so, according to the orthodox and catholic faith, we believe that they are consubstantial. For the Father, generating eternally the Son, has given to him his substance... It is clear that, in being born the Son has received the substance of the Father without this substance being in any way diminished, and so the Father and the Son have the same substance. So the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from them both, are one same reality" (DS 804-805).
    Phew.

    At least thats what they taught me in catechism .

    LINK

    exactly, and the later Roman rulers adopted it just because of its soothing effect that it held on the masses "render unto caesar" and all. Kept people in place for ages ;)
    Exactly what? He didnt say that proved Jesus never existed. Hes on topic saying why it spread. Thats the real question here.

    [QUOTE]I dont know what you're talking about because clearly you have no understanding of the way Xtianity works.[QUOTE]

    Does anyone else see the irony in this statement or is it just me?
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 06-10-2007 at 03:25.
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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    That whole 3-is-1 thing is just. Stupid.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  27. #27
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    That whole 3-is-1 thing is just. Stupid.

    My my you never learn. Dont call other peoples heart felt beliefs stupid. Its not nice. Should they answer back you beliefs are stupid? You will have to come up with a better argument than that. Besides I thought you maintained I clearly had no understanding of the way Christianity worked. Where as you are the expert at everything. All others are stupid.
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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    well, I believe in what are called "facts". You should look into them sometime. Facts are by definition not "stupid". Belief in a mystical pantheon of Christian gods is silly.

    here's a cool movie i just found :

    http://www.thegodmovie.com/atheism/?...FQVpFQodFn9ntg
    Last edited by Zaknafien; 06-10-2007 at 04:02.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  29. #29
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    well, I believe in what are called "facts".
    Why is it only you present facts? I havent seen any on this topic. Just some cut and pastes that agree with your position. Let me know when anyone can prove that Jesus did or did not exist. While your at it let me know about any other god or gods as well.

    You should look into them sometime.
    I do constantly. Thats another reason I come here. To see if they are indeed facts or open to interpretation. As I said you have presented no facts here to back up your claim that Christ never existed anymore than I have that he did. If I believed he did I would be a Christian still. Besides thats not the point of this thread.

    Facts are by definition not "stupid".
    They are when conjecture is presented as fact.

    Belief in a mystical pantheon of Christian gods is silly.
    I thought you understood Christianity. There is only one God.
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    Default Re: For non-Christians, how did Jesus do it?

    christians like to have it both ways, they say there are three, but they are one. thats silly.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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