Statistical Conversion

[Jargon]

I know the Warhammer mod for R:TW had a magic equation that converted Warhammer stats for the game. Does anyone know what it was or have any new ideas?

The first step would be to relate the two statistical areas. I would suggest the following:

Movement = Fiddiling with animations
Weapon Skill = Attack
Ballistic SKill = Missile
Strength =
Toughness = Defence
Wounds = Hit Points
Initative =
Attacks = Weapon Animation Speed (is this easily modifable?)
Leadership= Morale

Units should automaticaly get the max amount of armour possible for them, unless they are meant to be a two handed unit like Great Swords or Sword Masters. The type of weapon a unit uses plays an important part in Attack and Defence.

Shield = + 3 Defence
Light Armour= + 4 Defence
Light armour + shield = + 7 Defence
Heavy Armour= + 6 Defence
Heavy Armour + shield = + 9 Defence

Halberd +2 Attack
Two handed Weapon= +2 Attack
Lance= +3 Attack

Charge will depend on mounted / dismounted, but normally it is 1-3 for foot soldiers and 5-8 for knights, which makes it easy to convert.

In vanilla MTW, the basic stats for a spear militia are Attack 5, Defence 7, Charge 2. Its debatle whether these numbers are good or bad, but its something to start with.

Now seeing as most basic weak units in Warhammer are likely to have a Weapon Skill of 2, and Toughness and Strength of 3, I guess we should try and get the two figures to match after rounding up.

Weapons Skill 2 * 2.5 = 5
Toughness 3 * 2.33 = 7
Charge = 2

Now lets use a basic mounted unit like a Bretonnian Knights of the Realm and try to convert them using the same equation. The stats for Feudal Knights are Attack 10, Defence 16 and Charge 6.

Weapon Skill 4 * 2.5 + 3 = Attack 13
Toughness 3 * 2.33 + 9 = Toughness 16
Charge = 6

The extra armour the knight wears helps to get Toughness to match perfectly (okay so I played with the Heavy Armour + Shield bonus to get it to match). Currently the bonus from using a lance makes its attack a little too high.

Okay, now that iv'e fudged the numbers to get a basic knight to convert, how does it work with a basic elite infantry unit, like turning a Lizardmen Temple Guard into a dismounted Feudal Knight with Attack 13 and Defence 21?

Weapon Skill 4 * 2.5 +2 = Attack 12
Toughness 4 * 2.33 + 3= Toughness 13
Charge= 2 or 3

The attack is pretty good, but no armour means that they lose a lot of toughness. Are Temple Guard 't meant to compete with heavily armoured units? Maybe having a charge of 3 or higher morale would make the difference?

Placed under any amount of scrutiny and this system collapses, but at least if people play around with some ideas we could come up with some equations that can help to convert the many units in a fair manner (as opposed to doing it by gut instinct).

[Jargon]

Some interesting realistic combat discussion in this mods thread:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82671

Converting stats across using MTW units as templates is probably not the best way to do it, considering how over powered militia units are in the vanilla game.

[Bwian]

Thanks for this ... it's a good starting point for discussion on whether we need to come up with a formulaic approach, or a 'gut feel and test'

You have clearly put some time in to this!

[DrZoidberg]

'gut feel and test'

I'm all for this one. The stats is the one area where we can play around a lot, and I suggest we do it. We want it to feel right, rather than be a perfect conversion, right?

[Jargon]

If a gut feeling system works, then great. The problem is that someones gut feeling about a unit can be different to others. It can also lead to arbitary or unblanced results (someone may have a special memory of their Skeleton Warriors being really useful in table top battle, and they dont 'feel' they should be too weak in MTW). This way at least the numbers can be converted based on actual data available rather than impressions.

I would say start with a formulae system that converts the stats from Warhammer to MTW, then work from there in modifying it by what makes sense. Some stuff may not convert over well. What does a difference of having toughness 3 compared to 5 mean for the game? Is this not as large a difference as having heavy armour and shield? Seeing how the actual numbers can change things in MTW will help, and a good system will auto-balance the units compared to each other.

There are lots of variables not mentioned in my first post that need to be assessed. I believe unit 'mass' plays a role in the game engine, and would be a tremendous benefit for minotaurs, ogres, kroxigors etc. Tweaking weapon speed also makes a significant difference, and I think would represent the number of attacks nicely.

[DrZoidberg]

If a gut feeling system works, then great. The problem is that someones gut feeling about a unit can be different to others. It can also lead to arbitary or unblanced results (someone may have a special memory of their Skeleton Warriors being really useful in table top battle, and they dont 'feel' they should be too weak in MTW). This way at least the numbers can be converted based on actual data available rather than impressions.

I would say start with a formulae system that converts the stats from Warhammer to MTW, then work from there in modifying it by what makes sense. Some stuff may not convert over well. What does a difference of having toughness 3 compared to 5 mean for the game? Is this not as large a difference as having heavy armour and shield? Seeing how the actual numbers can change things in MTW will help, and a good system will auto-balance the units compared to each other.

There are lots of variables not mentioned in my first post that need to be assessed. I believe unit 'mass' plays a role in the game engine, and would be a tremendous benefit for minotaurs, ogres, kroxigors etc. Tweaking weapon speed also makes a significant difference, and I think would represent the number of attacks nicely.

You got me there. Does actually sound like the best way to do it. We do need to weigh in magic though. A lot of a units price depends on that.

[Revan-Shan]

[QUOTE=Jargon]If a gut feeling system works, then great. The problem is that someones gut feeling about a unit can be different to others. It can also lead to arbitary or unblanced results (someone may have a special memory of their Skeleton Warriors being really useful in table top battle, and they dont 'feel' they should be too weak in MTW).QUOTE]

I have lots of experience in table top battles. Specially with The Empire and the Vampire Counts. I'll tell you someting:

The arcabusiers (the empire), are the most deadly basic unit of all when they are firing but anyone can beat them in hand to hand combat.

Basic skelletons and zombies (the vampire counts): a twohanded potatoe would be more useful and less expensive. Their only good thing about them is their moral and how they affect the enemie's moral.

Two hand swordmen (empire): Perhaps a little bit expensive but have a very good moral and they are very effective, you can rely on them.

Canons (empire): My experience with them is just: don't use canons. The only canon which is worth to use is the one which can fire multiple missiles at a time (cañon de salvas, don't know how to say it in english), when I hear its name one word comes to my mind: destruction.

Warhammer cavalry: I have never relied on it.

Mercenaries: The Damned Company is the best of all.

Heroes: Karl Franz, I once used him and he himself destroyed a whole Vampire Counts' army.