Statistical Conversion

[Jargon]

Its difficult to test battle stats in MTW, does medium difficulty not add any extra modifiers into the mix? I have been pitting Grave Guard against Tomb Guard, which should be a fair fight, but the Grave Guard almost always win. Is it the MTW units that I am basing them off? Iv'e tried changing Tomb Guard from Tabardariyya to Hashishim as I thought the two handed axe may have been the problem, but that doesnt seem to be it.

I tried adding in Ushabti to see how well a super unit went. A unit of Ushabti straight up against a unit of Grave Guard usually leaves the Ushabti dead. If I hit the Grave guard with another unit like skeletons or Tomb guard first and hit them with the Ushbati from the side, this has a better effect. Should they be powerful enough to take on Grave Guard ont heir own? Maybe its the size of 75 men vs 16 thats just too much, as their stats are excellent.

Skeleton Warrior

stat_pri (WS+1, Strength+3, Hand Weapon+1), (Light Infantry Charge=2), no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, knife, 25, 0.8

stat_pri_armour (light Armour=2), (Weapon Skill+1 + Toughness+3), (light shield +2) 0, flesh

type ME Peasants
dictionary ME_Peasants ; Peasants
category infantry
class light
voice_type Light
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier ME_Peasants, 60, 0, 1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, is_peasant, peasant, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 6, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, knife, 25, 0.8
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 4, 2, flesh
;stat_armour_ex 0, 2, 0, 0, 2, 0, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 3, low, untrained, lock_morale
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 210, 40, 25, 210, 90, 4, 20
armour_ug_levels 0, 1
armour_ug_models ME_Peasants, ME_Peasants_ug1
ownership moors, egypt, turks, mongols, timurids, slave
era 0 moors, egypt, turks, mongols, timurids
era 1 moors, egypt, turks, mongols, timurids
era 2 moors, egypt, turks, mongols, timurids
;unit_info 2, 0, 2

Tomb Guard (Hashishim)

stat_pri (weapon skill+3 + Strength+6 + Hand Weapon+1 + Tomb Blads +3), (elite unit charge=5), no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 0.4

stat_pri_armour (light armour 2), (Weapon Skill+3 + Toughness+6 ), (shield=4), metal

type Hashishim
dictionary Hashishim ; Hashashim
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Hashishim, 48, 0, 1.2
attributes sea_faring, very_hardy, can_withdraw, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 2, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 13, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 9, 4, metal
;stat_armour_ex 4, 0, 0, 0, 5, 8, 8, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 1, 1, 0, -2
stat_mental 11, disciplined, trained, lock_morale
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 630, 250, 35, 205, 630, 4, 250
armour_ug_levels 3
armour_ug_models Hashishim
ownership moors, egypt, turks
era 1 moors, egypt, turks
era 2 moors, egypt, turks
;unit_info 14, 0, 34

Ushubati (Tabardariyya)

stat_pri (weapon skill+6 + Strength+8 + Huge Ritual Blades+5), (large unit charge=6), no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 0.4

stat_pri_armour (undead Construct+4), (Weapon Skill+6 + Toughness+6 ), (no shield), metal

type Tabardariyya
dictionary Tabardariyya ; Tabardariyya
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Tabardariyya, 12, 0, 1.2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraw, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 3, 0
stat_pri 19, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 0.4
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 4, 12, 0, metal
;stat_armour_ex 4, 6, 0, 0, 10, 0, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 10, normal, highly_trained, lock_morale
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1170, 175, 30, 180, 1170, 4, 150
armour_ug_levels 3, 4
armour_ug_models Tabardariyya, Tabardariyya_ug1
ownership egypt
era 1 egypt
era 2 egypt
;unit_info 19, 0, 14

Grave Guard (Dismounted Druchima)

stat_pri (Weapon Skill+3 + Strength+6 + Hand Weapon+1 Wight Blade +3), (Elite infantry charge=5), no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 1.5

stat_pri_armour (Heavy armour=6), (Weapon Skill+3 + Toughness+6), 4, metal


type Dismounted Druchima
dictionary Dismounted_Druchima ; Dismounted Druzhina
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Dismounted_Druchima, 48 0, 1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 13, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 9, 4, metal
;stat_armour_ex 3, 4, 0, 0, 4, 8, 8, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 6
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 8, normal, trained, lock_morale
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 630, 150, 30, 165, 630, 4, 160
armour_ug_levels 2, 3
armour_ug_models Dismounted_Druchima, Dismounted_Druchima_ug1
ownership russia
era 0 russia
era 1 russia
;unit_info 9, 0, 15

Stat List used:

Armour List:

Normal Mount= +1
Special/Barded Mount= +2
Light Armour= +2
Scaly Skin 6+= +3
Undead Construct= +4
Scaly Skin 4+= +5
Heavy Armour= +6
Chaos Armour= +7


Light Shield= +2???
Shield= +4
Heavy Shield= +8???

Weapon/Strength/Ballistic Skill List:

1= +0
2= +1
3 = +3
4= +6
5= +7
6= +8
7= +9

Ranged Weapon Strength:

Javelin= 2
Bow= 2

Weapon List

Hand Weapon +1
Spear+3
Lance +3
Great Weapon +3
Halberd
Ethereal
Huge Ritual Blades +5
Flail

Tomb Blades +3
Wight Blade +3
Poisoned Attack= +3

Charge:

Light Archer= 1
Light infantry= 2
Standard infantry=3
Elite/Special Infantry=5
Large sized infantry= 6
Light Archer Cavalry= 3
Light Cavalry= 4
Cavalry= 6
Elite Cavalry= 8
Cavalry secondary weapon close combat= 50% normal charge

Mental:

Undead= lock_morale
Questing Vow= +2 morale

Attacks:

Braindead= 1.5
1= 1
2= .7
3= .4
4= .3

Wounds:

1= 1
2= 2
3= 3
4= 4

Unit Size:

Light Archer= 48
Standard Infantry= 60
Special/Elite Infantry= 48
Large Monster unit= 12
Light cavalry= 40
Standard cavalry= 35
Elite cavalry= 24

[Casuir]

Animations play a part in combat,use two units with the same animation sets for now. Your stats look off though, have you worked out an actually formula based on warhammer combat or are you just assigning numbers off the top of your head? The ws/str/bs list you have there looks like its going to unbalance things for a start, the numbers should be related to each other in some way.

[Jargon]

Iv'e tried not to assign any numbers arbitarily, and made everything relate to Warhammer in some respect. If a special rule for Zombies is that they are Brain Dead, then I have tried to convert that as a 0.5 increase to their attack speed (slowing down). If a unit has magic or poisoned weapons, then that becomes a very specific bonus to attack that is balanced to the effect of other weapons. If some of the numbers seem like they have been chosen at random, its because I am trying to convert information that has no equal in the MTW game system..

When you say some of the numbers are off, are you able to give specific examples? At the top of each units stat sheet I have listed the changes I made for each unit (except the mental section) so that everything I have done is transparent and easily modifable by others. I am purposefully trying to display my method of thinking so it is easily to comment on.

The first number of "stat pri" is based on a combination of weapon skill, strength and the type of hand weapon employed. The second number is the charge based on the type of unit, so elite infantry have a larger charge than light archers.

The first number of "stat_pri_armour" is the type of armour, and the second is a combination of toughness and weapon skill. The third is to do with shields, but I am currently having trouble with that.

The way I have ws/str/bs converted now:

1= +0
2= +1
3 = +3
4= +6
5= +7
6= +8
7= +9

The reason I have created a jump between 3 and 4 is because of the way Warhammer gaming works. The difference between weapon skill 2 and weapon skill 4 is a difference of 2, which would mean very little in MTW, but in Warhammer table top gaming it can mean an extra 20-30% chance of success. The jump is intended to differentiate this. If someone can think up a more intelligent system then great, this is just the best I could come up with at the moment.

It could be changed to something more symetrical:

1= +0
2= +1
3 = +3
4= +5
5= +7
6= +9
7= +11

Or the numbers could be converted by multipliers or any other good ideas people can suggest.

[Casuir]

Specific examples of arbitrarily assigned values? Huge ritual blades for one, you've given a unit which carries these +5 whereas in the tabletop game theres no specific bonuses for these weapons. So Ushutabi get an additional bonus increasing their attack by a third of what it should be by a straight stat conversion. Great weapons give a +2 bonus to strength in the game which under your system translates into +4 if the units strength is 3, otherwise its a +2 bonus.

The system you have for armour looks dodgy as well, the values you've given some of the armour types dont match what they are in the game, scaly skin +6, light armour and having a mount all give the same bonus for example. It should be based on the actual saving throw the unit has, not an arbitrary value based on . Also the way you have the armour values set is wrong, under your system a unit being shot at only gets the benefit of its armour whereas in the tabletop game toughness is also taken into account. Shields as well look wrong with the bonus granted being twice what it should be going on the values you've given for light armour. Also units with shields get an additional +1 to their armour save which is applied only in close combat.

Charge bonuses are another area, the only bonuses you get in the tabletop game are related to the weapons carried, adding bonuses based on unit types is going to unbalance things. The values here should be based on the strength bonuses some weapons give when attacking and in proportion to how strenght is factored into the base attack skill.

This is what I mean by arbitrarily assigning values, it might relate to warhamer but by no means is it going to give accurate results as I think your tests show. Comparing your stats with the tabletop ones: from left attack factor, total defence (the value they would have in a straight one on one frontal clash), weapon skill, strength, toughness and saving throw.
ST: A .D W S T Sve
TG:13 15 3 4 4 5+
GG:13 19 3 4 4 4+
US:19 16 4 6 4 5+
Instead of being equal grave guard have nearly 33% extra defence compared to tomb guard while the only difference tabletop wise is an extra +1 saving throw. Ushubati's extra +1 in weapon skill gives them just that in comparison to tomb guard despite the large jump in stat bonus you've given there. Attack bonuses look alright but remember the ushubati have a +5 bonus they shouldnt have and the extra +3 you give the other two is uncertain, adding a bonus for the killing blow rule would unbalance the unit against units with just one wound and I cant find the benefits of a magical weapon in combat in the rulebook. Compare these with your questing knight:
ST: A .D W S T Sve
QK:16 15 4 4 3 2+
Obviously somethings off here defence wise, an extra 3+ saving throw and +1 in weapon skill shouldnt be the same as a +1 in toughness, right?

Dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to discourage you here but this needs to be done right. It needs a concrete formula behind it rather than just saying this is equal to this, adding a few values together and seeing if it works.

[Jargon]

Discouraged? Anything but, your information is tremendously helpful, thanks. I'm not mired in what i have previously done, and only hoped to generate discussion (although no on else has yet to contribute) even if it meant posting bad information. Because you argued rationaly about the stats is easy to see how it should be converted.

Almost all the stats need to change. I'm not sure why I gave Huge Ritual Blades such a bonus, I guess I thought they were like improved Tomb Blades for some reason. They should be on par with great weapons. The way you explained the saving throws in relation to defence makes sense. It needs lots of work, but I dont think we are stressed for time at the moment so we can get it right.

[overkill1991]

If i understand it correctly you guys want to use tabletop stats and kinda make it to the game right ?


a problem is that if you base your game stats of the tabletop stats it isnt accurate. this is because the tabletop stats and the lore are very different.

example : in tabletop a bloodthirster would beat all hero characters such as Teclis, Malekith, Archaeon etc..

but in lore these heroes are all capable of killing a bloodthirster(or even multiple greater demons) in single combat.



i hope you guys understand what im trying to say.

and sorry if you guys were not trying to base the game stats of the tabletop stats, then i musunderstood what you guys were saying.

[Bwian]

Luckily, we don;t have hero characters in TW games, so we CAN look more to the stats.

[Casuir]

We'll seeing how the lore is there to support the actual game and not the other way round I think tabletop stats take preference. Superpowerful generals capable of taking on whole armies would unbalance the whole game.

Jargon, like other things balancing the units is lower priority than making them at the mo so you'll probably be working on this on your own for a while.