Statistical Conversion

[Jargon]

I know the Warhammer mod for R:TW had a magic equation that converted Warhammer stats for the game. Does anyone know what it was or have any new ideas?

The first step would be to relate the two statistical areas. I would suggest the following:

Movement = Fiddiling with animations
Weapon Skill = Attack
Ballistic SKill = Missile
Strength =
Toughness = Defence
Wounds = Hit Points
Initative =
Attacks = Weapon Animation Speed (is this easily modifable?)
Leadership= Morale

Units should automaticaly get the max amount of armour possible for them, unless they are meant to be a two handed unit like Great Swords or Sword Masters. The type of weapon a unit uses plays an important part in Attack and Defence.

Shield = + 3 Defence
Light Armour= + 4 Defence
Light armour + shield = + 7 Defence
Heavy Armour= + 6 Defence
Heavy Armour + shield = + 9 Defence

Halberd +2 Attack
Two handed Weapon= +2 Attack
Lance= +3 Attack

Charge will depend on mounted / dismounted, but normally it is 1-3 for foot soldiers and 5-8 for knights, which makes it easy to convert.

In vanilla MTW, the basic stats for a spear militia are Attack 5, Defence 7, Charge 2. Its debatle whether these numbers are good or bad, but its something to start with.

Now seeing as most basic weak units in Warhammer are likely to have a Weapon Skill of 2, and Toughness and Strength of 3, I guess we should try and get the two figures to match after rounding up.

Weapons Skill 2 * 2.5 = 5
Toughness 3 * 2.33 = 7
Charge = 2

Now lets use a basic mounted unit like a Bretonnian Knights of the Realm and try to convert them using the same equation. The stats for Feudal Knights are Attack 10, Defence 16 and Charge 6.

Weapon Skill 4 * 2.5 + 3 = Attack 13
Toughness 3 * 2.33 + 9 = Toughness 16
Charge = 6

The extra armour the knight wears helps to get Toughness to match perfectly (okay so I played with the Heavy Armour + Shield bonus to get it to match). Currently the bonus from using a lance makes its attack a little too high.

Okay, now that iv'e fudged the numbers to get a basic knight to convert, how does it work with a basic elite infantry unit, like turning a Lizardmen Temple Guard into a dismounted Feudal Knight with Attack 13 and Defence 21?

Weapon Skill 4 * 2.5 +2 = Attack 12
Toughness 4 * 2.33 + 3= Toughness 13
Charge= 2 or 3

The attack is pretty good, but no armour means that they lose a lot of toughness. Are Temple Guard 't meant to compete with heavily armoured units? Maybe having a charge of 3 or higher morale would make the difference?

Placed under any amount of scrutiny and this system collapses, but at least if people play around with some ideas we could come up with some equations that can help to convert the many units in a fair manner (as opposed to doing it by gut instinct).

[Jargon]

Some interesting realistic combat discussion in this mods thread:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82671

Converting stats across using MTW units as templates is probably not the best way to do it, considering how over powered militia units are in the vanilla game.

[Bwian]

Thanks for this ... it's a good starting point for discussion on whether we need to come up with a formulaic approach, or a 'gut feel and test'

You have clearly put some time in to this!

[DrZoidberg]

'gut feel and test'

I'm all for this one. The stats is the one area where we can play around a lot, and I suggest we do it. We want it to feel right, rather than be a perfect conversion, right?

[Jargon]

If a gut feeling system works, then great. The problem is that someones gut feeling about a unit can be different to others. It can also lead to arbitary or unblanced results (someone may have a special memory of their Skeleton Warriors being really useful in table top battle, and they dont 'feel' they should be too weak in MTW). This way at least the numbers can be converted based on actual data available rather than impressions.

I would say start with a formulae system that converts the stats from Warhammer to MTW, then work from there in modifying it by what makes sense. Some stuff may not convert over well. What does a difference of having toughness 3 compared to 5 mean for the game? Is this not as large a difference as having heavy armour and shield? Seeing how the actual numbers can change things in MTW will help, and a good system will auto-balance the units compared to each other.

There are lots of variables not mentioned in my first post that need to be assessed. I believe unit 'mass' plays a role in the game engine, and would be a tremendous benefit for minotaurs, ogres, kroxigors etc. Tweaking weapon speed also makes a significant difference, and I think would represent the number of attacks nicely.

[DrZoidberg]

If a gut feeling system works, then great. The problem is that someones gut feeling about a unit can be different to others. It can also lead to arbitary or unblanced results (someone may have a special memory of their Skeleton Warriors being really useful in table top battle, and they dont 'feel' they should be too weak in MTW). This way at least the numbers can be converted based on actual data available rather than impressions.

I would say start with a formulae system that converts the stats from Warhammer to MTW, then work from there in modifying it by what makes sense. Some stuff may not convert over well. What does a difference of having toughness 3 compared to 5 mean for the game? Is this not as large a difference as having heavy armour and shield? Seeing how the actual numbers can change things in MTW will help, and a good system will auto-balance the units compared to each other.

There are lots of variables not mentioned in my first post that need to be assessed. I believe unit 'mass' plays a role in the game engine, and would be a tremendous benefit for minotaurs, ogres, kroxigors etc. Tweaking weapon speed also makes a significant difference, and I think would represent the number of attacks nicely.

You got me there. Does actually sound like the best way to do it. We do need to weigh in magic though. A lot of a units price depends on that.

[Casuir]

Defense is not one value, theres three seperate entries which dont all apply at the same time. Defense skill should I think be influenced by weapon skill somewhat, armour by the toughness and armour used and shields should be kept seperate from that. Weapon attack values should factor in strength and weapon skill.

[Jargon]

I didnt even think of that, if someones weapon skill is high enough they can deflect wounds without having anything to do with armour.

So, modified with Casuir's ideas, heres a basic equation without modifications:

Defence = Weapon Skill + Toughness +Type of Armour
Attack= Weapon Skill + Strength + Type of Weapon

Shield = + 1 Defence
Light Armour= + 2 Defence
Light armour + shield = + 3 Defence
Scaly Skin= +3 Defence
Heavy Armour= + 4 Defence
Heavy Armour + shield = + 5 Defence

Weapon:
Two handed / Great Weapon= +2 Attack
Lance= +3 Attack

Reusing the same examples as before:

Bretonnian Man At Arms

Defence= 2 + 3 + 3= 8
Attack= 2 + 3 + 0= 5
Charge= 2

Knights of the Realm

Defence= 4 + 3 + 5= 12
Attack= 4 + 3 + 3= 10
Charge= 6

Kroxigor

Defence= 3 + 5 + 3 = 11
Attack= 3 + 4 + 2 = 9
Charge= 3

So just using their vanilla stats straight up, theres not much difference between them. A humble Bretonnian Man at Arms is nearly as defensive as knight or a Kroxigor. We can do two things to change this; increase the bonus that heavy armour gives by 3 and Scaly skin by 1, and multiply the effects of toughness and strength (say by 2) inorder to stretch out the differences. I chose not to multiply weapon skill as to not inflate the numbers too drastically:

Bretonnian Man At Arms

Defence= 2 + (3*2) + 3= 11
Attack= 2 + (3*2) + 0= 8
Charge= 2

Knights of the Realm

Defence= 4 + (3*2) + 8= 18
Attack= 4 + (3*2) + 3= 13
Charge= 6

Kroxigor

Defence= 3 + (5*2) + 4 = 16
Attack= 3 + (4*2) + 2 = 13
Charge= 3

Okay so a little multiplication and we start to see more of a difference between the units. Heres what happens when we multiply weapon skill as well.

Bretonnian Man At Arms

Defence= (2*2) + (3*2) + 3= 13
Attack= (2*2) + (3*2) + 0= 10
Charge= 2

Knights of the Realm

Defence= (4*2) + (3*2) + 8= 22
Attack= (4*2) + (3*2) + 3= 17
Charge= 6

Kroxigor

Defence= (3*2) + (5*2) + 4 = 20
Attack= (3*2) + (4*2) + 2 = 16
Charge= 3

With toughness, strength and weapon skill multiplied the numbers start to bloat out a bit above normal MTW. The knight and the kroxigor gained a few extra points in attack and defence over the man at arms. Can the game's battles be adjusted so that numbers higher than normal work fine, but at least the differences between unit stats is distiinguished?

[Casuir]

You're still taking defense as a single value, its not, its three seperate ones. I think as well to do this right you're going to have to factor in how combat actually works in warhammer.

[uanime5]

Technically speaking Casuir defence is made of 7 levels. The first four cover armour and armour upgrades, the next one is defence skill, and the last two cover the shield abilities: shield vs melee and shield vs missile weapons. Though the three you mentioned Casuir are generally used as the default.

Jargon I'd also like to point out that the following weapon stats can also be changed. For melee weapons they are attack, charge bonus, delay between attacks, armour piercing ability (targets armour cut by half), attack abilities against infantry, and attack bonuses against cavalry. While for missile weapons these are range, number of missiles, delay between attacks, and body piercing ability (can pass through one soldier and hit another soldier).

[Jargon]

Great, thx for the info, I knew I had misenterpreted Casuir's post and needed a little more explanation. The best way iv'e found to fish out ideas from you guys is to put out a bad idea and watch out for the corrective posts :-)

[Casuir]

Technically speaking Casuir defence is made of 7 levels. The first four cover armour and armour upgrades, the next one is defence skill, and the last two cover the shield abilities: shield vs melee and shield vs missile weapons. Though the three you mentioned Casuir are generally used as the default.

Jargon I'd also like to point out that the following weapon stats can also be changed. For melee weapons they are attack, charge bonus, delay between attacks, armour piercing ability (targets armour cut by half), attack abilities against infantry, and attack bonuses against cavalry. While for missile weapons these are range, number of missiles, delay between attacks, and body piercing ability (can pass through one soldier and hit another soldier).

If you take a closer look at those entrys you'll see they're commented out and removing the comments will crash the game. The actual armour values are the line above that one which gives three values. Likewise the weapon settings the last two you mention one doesnt exist and the other isnt used. Stuff like body and armour piercing should only be used where warhammer rules warrant it, balancings akward enough as it is.

[Jargon]

Okay I found all the stuff you guys were talking about in export_descr_unit. We'll keep using Bretonnia as an example as they are the easiest to convert over due to mounted knights.

MTW stats for a Feudal Knight:

type Feudal Knights
dictionary Feudal_Knights ; Feudal Knights
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier Feudal_Knights, 32, 0, 1
mount barded horse
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, knight
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 2, square, wedge
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 10, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 7, 5, 4, metal
;stat_armour_ex 7, 8, 0, 0, 5, 4, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5
stat_ground 0, -2, -4, 0
stat_mental 9, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 730, 250, 120, 95, 730, 4, 180
armour_ug_levels 3, 4
armour_ug_models Feudal_Knights, Feudal_Knights_ug1
ownership england, scotland, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, hungary, slave
era 0 england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, hungary
era 1 scotland
;unit_info 10, 0, 16

Okay, ignoring the unimportant ones and those with the ; symbol in front like Casuir advised, the ones we are looking at are:

stat_pri 10, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
stat_sec 11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
stat_pri_armour 7, 5, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_mental 9, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 45

An explanation of all the important stats are:

(stat_pri) Primary Weapon
attack factor= 10
attack bonus factor if charging= 6
Weapon type MELEE
Tech type = MELEE_BLADE
Damage type = PIERCING
Sound type when weapon hits = SPEAR
Min delay between attacks (in 1/10th of a second)= 25
Skeleton compensation factor in melee. Should be 1= 1

(stat_sec) Secondary Weapon
attack factor= 11
attack bonus factor if charging= 4
Weapon type MELEE
Tech type = MELEE_BLADE
Damage type = PIERCING
Sound type when weapon hits = SWORD
Min delay between attacks (in 1/10th of a second)= 25
Skeleton compensation factor in melee. Should be 1= 1

(stat_pri_armour) Armour
armour factor= 7
defensive skill factor (not used when shot at)= 5
shield factor (only used for attacks from the front of left)= 4
sound type when hit = flesh, leather, or metal= METAL

(stat_sec_armour) Mount Armour
armour factor= 0
defensive skill factor (not used when shot at)= 0
sound type when hit = flesh, leather, or metal= FLESH

(stat_mental) Morale
Base morale level= 9
Discipline may be normal, low, disciplined or impetuous. Impetuous units may charge without orders= IMPETUOUS
Training determines how tidy the unit's formation is. Discipline the response to morale SHOCKS= TRAINED
(optional lock_morale stops unit from ever routing, brilliant for units like Slayers that know no fear)

Okay, so if the above is how we want a typical Knight of the Realm from the Warhammer world to look like in MTW (this is just an assumption) then we need a calculation that can get the two different stats to fit. Once an equation has been made, we can try it with other units, see how far off it is from the ideal role the unit should have in the game, and then go back and modify the initial approach to find something that works for a variety of units.

Knight of the Realm Converted:

1) Primary Attack factor=*Weapons Skill + Strength + Weapon Type + Equation* = 10
2) Primary Attack bonus factor if charging= (I think this can be arbitrarily assigned based on the unit. 1-6 for infantry and light cavalry, 6-8 for heavy cavalry. It should be 6 for Knight of the Realm.)= 6
3) The type of weapon and sound used is just logic, Melee, spear, piercing etc.
4) Min delay between attacks= 25 (this seems to always stay the same for all the units, so 25 is fine)
5) Skeleton compensation= (Cavalry are almost always 1. This number seems to be increased to 1.33 for heavy axemen and billmen, and decreased to 0.6 for some spearmen)
6) Secondary attack factor= *Weapon Skill + Strength + Weapon Type + Equation*= 11
7) Secondary attack bonus factor if charging= 4 (This is almost always 3-5, I can;t work out what makes the difference, the weapon, the strength of the unit, etc.)

8) Armour factor= (Just apply a single digit based on what we have pre-assigned each armour type. Theres quite a range here for armoured cavalry, from 6-11. We could make typical Heavy Armour 7, work out what is the best armour in the game (Chaos Armour?) and make it 10-11, and fill in the gaps with other different types of strange armour that appear in Warhammer) = 7
9) Defensive skill factor (not used when shot at)= *Weapon Skill + Toughness Equation*= 5
10) Shield factor= (I haven’t bothered to look at this number yet)= 4

11-13) I think all secondary armour stats are for elephants. This will be useful for units like Juggernaughts, Stegadons and other monsters.

14) Base morale level= (The highest morale in MTW I could find was 11, and since Warhammer leadership tests are out of 10ish, I think we could do an almost direct translation of Warhammer stats here to begin with) = 8
15) Discipline= (this will be applied by logic. Perhaps we want to make impetuous or untrained apply more for rebellious races like Orcs and Goblins, so we decide to just make Knights of the Realm disciplined or highly disciplined) = Disciplined
16) Training= (logic again, most of the fluff history will tell us if they are trained or not)= TRAINED

Where it says *Equation* means that some combination of Wounds, toughness, and/or weapon skill need to be worked out, except I don’t have the time to do it at the moment.

I also noticed that "mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4" was the reason for horses fearing the more exotic animals. What would happen if we were to create a new mount category for units that weren’t mounted? For example, goblins are supposed to fear High Elves. Can we create a mount category called Elves, give it to all elves, and then give all goblin units "mount_effect Elves -4"? Is it just a form of classification, or will it have detrimental effects on Elven infantry units?

Here also is the list of attributes for future reference:

sea_faring = can board ships; can_swim = can swim across rivers
hide_forest, hide_improved_forest, hide_anywhere = defines where the unit can hide
can_sap = Can dig tunnels under walls
frighten_foot, frighten_mounted = Cause fear to certain nearby unit types
can_run_amok = Unit may go out of control when riders lose control of animals
general_unit = The unit can be used for a named character's bodyguard
cantabrian_circle = The unit has this special ability
no_custom = The unit may not be selected in custom battles
command = The unit carries a legionary eagle, and gives bonuses to nearby units
mercenary_unit = The unit is s mercenary unit available to all factions
is_peasant = unknown
druid = Can do a special morale raising chant
power_charge = unkown
free_upkeep_unit = Unit can be supported free in a city

(some units have the attributes like “hardy”, “very_hardy”, “gunmen”, “crossbow”, “can_withdraw” etc. but no explanation is given at the start of the text)

[Casuir]

I also noticed that "mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4" was the reason for horses fearing the more exotic animals. What would happen if we were to create a new mount category for units that weren’t mounted? For example, goblins are supposed to fear High Elves. Can we create a mount category called Elves, give it to all elves, and then give all goblin units "mount_effect Elves -4"? Is it just a form of classification, or will it have detrimental effects on Elven infantry units?

The mount categorys are hardcoded but even if they werent it probably wouldnt work. Horses fearing camels and elephants is caused by the frighten_mounted flag these both have.

Here also is the list of attributes for future reference:

That list dates from rome, theres new attributes been added and some of these dont work.

Also, arent feudal knights equipped with mail while brettonian knights have plate? Using them as a anchor might not be the best, I'd use a few units which have equivelants in the two systems.

[Jargon]

Okay good point, maybe men at arms or Empire spearmen would be a better way to start. There is also the issue that the vanilla stats are kind bad, combat is too quick and arcadey. I have Darth Mod, Ultimate AI, the Long Road and some others mods. Do you suggest Warhammer be based off the combat stats of any of those?

[uanime5]

armour_ug_levels 3, 4

This line is also important because it lists the starting armour a unit has (such as light mail) and all the upgrades it can get. If the Brettonian Knights start with plate armour then this should be 5 or 6.

[Bwian]

We need to establish a base figure for attack and defence that we can convert over from one set of rules and stats to another. We do not need to worry about comparing our stats with MTW2 stats...as long as we balance attack and defence the same.

If our mailed knights have a value of 3...that would be fine...as long as the attack values pitted against it gave the right results. MTW2 body counts are too high, and the battles too quick. I would like to see longer fights and less rapid killing....and we can address that in the balance.

Lets get a conversion as a start point, and see how it looks. Pit that unit against an equal unit, and you will see if attack or defence is out of balance. Then work the same balance against another WTW unit...and fight them off. Also..we need to consider cost and upkeep. The more effective a unit is, the more expensive it would be. This could be related to the number of army points the tabletop game requires to purchase. It is also a balance factor.

If unit X costs 200, then it should be able to take on 2 units of soldiers costing 100 on relativley equal terms. That sort of thing.

Forget stock MTW2 values ... if we need to have a wider range of armour values to cover the units, then we can do that. No reaosn why our 'base' unit has to resemble a stock unit ... we will be balancing it against another mod unit...not stock.

[Jargon]

Alrighty, using your advise I started from the basics. I found two opposing units that were almost identical stat wise in order to pit them against each other: skeleton warriors and Bretonnian men at arms. I converted their stats over to MTW roughly, and then used the same method on other units. Archers, light horsemen, the tomb guards and Questing knights. The conversion method worked reasonably well, its not like the peasants could overpower the Tomb Guard, plenty of fine tuning ledft to do. The trick will be in using the same method with other races and getting things to feel right.

So heres the numbers I was working with, and would appreciate any suggestions on:

Armour List

Normal Mount= +1
Special/Barded Mount= +2
Light Armour= +2
Scaly Skin 6+= +3
Scaly Skin 4+= +5
Heavy Armour= +6
Chaos Armour= +7

Shields: I'm not really sure what to do with shields, technically there is only one type in Warhammer, but I have seen a whole range of numbers for the third stat number in "stat_pri_armour", which i think refers to shields.

LightShield= +2 ????
Shield= +4
Heavy Shield= +8 ????

Weapon/Strength/Toughness/Ballistic Skill List:

This list makes a large jump from level 3 to 4. This is intended as a crude method of differentiating the higher and lower level skills without going into multiplication. The reasoning is that having 4+ in a skill represents a unit's specialisation in being strong, tough or agile. It really hurts having low stats, which is how it should be I think. These numbers can be easily changed if they are too high or low, or dont make sense.

1= +0
2= +1
3 = +3
4= +6
5= +7
6= +8
7= +9

Ranged Weapon Strength:

Javelin= 2
Bow= 2

Weapon Strength List:

Hand Weapon +1
Spear+3
Great Weapon +4
Halberd
Ethereal
Tomb Blades +5
Huge Ritual Blades
Flail

Charge List:

Light Archer= 1
Light infantry= 2
Standard infantry=3
Elite/Special Infantry=5
Large sized infantry= 6
Light Archer Cavalry= 3
Light Cavalry= 4
Cavalry= 6
Elite Cavalry= 8

Cavalry secondary weapon close combat= 50% normal charge

Mental List:

Undead= lock_morale
Questing Vow= +2 morale

It's fun to play with undead with lock_morale switched on, suddenly their crappy troops become very deadly as blockers.

Skeleton Warrior (Middle East Peasant)

stat_pri (WS+1, Strength+3, Hand Weapon+1), (Light Infantry Charge=2), no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, knife, 25, 0.8

stat_pri_armour (light Armour=2), (Weapon Skill+1 + Toughness+3), (light shield +2) 0, flesh

type ME Peasants
dictionary ME_Peasants ; Peasants
category infantry
class light
voice_type Light
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier ME_Peasants, 60, 0, 1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, is_peasant, peasant
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 6, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, knife, 25, 0.8
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 4, 2, flesh
;stat_armour_ex 0, 2, 0, 0, 2, 0, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 3, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 240, 40, 25, 240, 90, 4, 20
armour_ug_levels 0, 1
armour_ug_models ME_Peasants, ME_Peasants_ug1
ownership moors, egypt, turks, mongols, timurids, slave
era 0 moors, egypt, turks, mongols, timurids
era 1 moors, egypt, turks, mongols, timurids
era 2 moors, egypt, turks, mongols, timurids
;unit_info 2, 0, 2

Skeleton Archer (ME Archer Militia)

stat_pri (ballistic skill+1, light arrow+2), 1, arrow, 120, 30, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none,
25, 1

stat_sec (Weapon Skill+1 + Strength +3+Hand Weapon+1), 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, knife, 25, 0.8

stat_pri_armour (light armour+2), (weapon skill 1 + toughness 3), 0, flesh


type ME Archer Militia
dictionary ME_Archer_Militia ; Archer Militia
category infantry
class missile
voice_type Light
banner faction main_missile
banner holy crusade
soldier ME_Archer_Militia, 48, 0, 0.8
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 3, 1, arrow, 120, 30, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none,
25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 5, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, knife, 25, 0.8
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 4, 0, flesh
;stat_armour_ex 0, 2, 0, 0, 2, 0, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 1, 1, 0, -2
stat_mental 3, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 192, 40, 20, 120, 192, 4, 60
armour_ug_levels 0, 1
armour_ug_models ME_Archer_Militia, ME_Archer_Militia_ug1
ownership egypt
;unit_info 3, 5, 2

Skeleton Light Horsemen

stat_pri (Balistic Skill+1 + Ranged Weapon Strength=2), (light cavalry charge=3), cav_composite_arrow, 120, 25, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 25, 1

stat_sec (Weapon Skill +1, Strength+3, Weapon Strength+1) 4, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 2

stat_pri_armour (light armour=2, mount armour+1), (Weapon Skill+1 + Toughness+3), (No Shield), flesh

type Mamluk Archers
dictionary Mamluk_Archers ; Mamluk Archers
category cavalry
class missile
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier Mamluk_Archers, 24, 0, 1
mount heavy horse
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, cantabrian_circle
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 3, 3, cav_composite_arrow, 120, 25, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr ap, thrown
stat_sec 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 2
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 4, 0, flesh
;stat_armour_ex 0, 2, 0, 0, 3, 5, 5, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 2, -10, -2
stat_mental 3, low, untrained, lock_morale
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 850, 155, 35, 210, 850, 4, 250
armour_ug_levels 2, 3
armour_ug_models Mamluk_Archers, Mamluk_Archers_ug1
ownership egypt, slave
era 0 egypt
era 1 egypt
era 2 egypt
;unit_info 5, 8, 12

Tomb Guard
stat_pri (weapon skill+3, Strength+6 + Tomb Blade+5), (Elite Infantry Charge=5), no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 0.4

stat_pri_armour (light armour+2), (Weapon Skill+3 + Toughness+6 ), (Shield=2), metal

type Tabardariyya
dictionary Tabardariyya ; Tabardariyya
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Tabardariyya, 48, 0, 1.2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraw
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 14, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 0.4
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 9, 2, metal
;stat_armour_ex 4, 6, 0, 0, 10, 0, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 1, 1, 0, -2
stat_mental 10, normal, highly_trained, lock_morale
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 510, 175, 30, 180, 510, 4, 150
armour_ug_levels 3, 4
armour_ug_models Tabardariyya, Tabardariyya_ug1
ownership egypt
era 1 egypt
era 2 egypt
;unit_info 19, 0, 14

Bretonnian Peasants (Peasants)


stat_pri (WS+1, Strength+3, Hand Weapon+1), (Light Infantry Charge=2), no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, knife, 25, 0.8

stat_pri_armour (light Armour=2), (Weapon Skill+1 + Toughness+3), (light shield +2) 0, flesh

type Peasants
dictionary Peasants ; Peasants
category infantry
class light
voice_type Light
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Peasants, 60, 0, 0.8
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, is_peasant, peasant
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 6, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 25, 0.4
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 4, 2, flesh
;stat_armour_ex 0, 2, 0, 0, 3, 0, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 4
stat_mental 5, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 150, 90, 25, 140, 150, 4, 30
armour_ug_levels 0, 1
armour_ug_models Peasants, Peasants_ug1
ownership england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice,
papal_states, slave, normans, saxons
era 0 england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice,
papal_states, normans, saxons
era 1 england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice,
papal_states, normans, saxons
era 2 england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice,
papal_states, normans, saxons
;unit_info 3, 0, 3

Peasant Archers (Using MTW Peasant Archers)

stat_pri (BS+3 + Ranged Weapon Strength +2), (light archer charge=1), arrow, 120, 30, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 25, 1

stat_sec (WS+1 + hand weapon+1 +Strength+3), 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, knife, 25, 0.8

stat_pri_armour (Light Armour+2), (Weapon Skill+1 + Toughness+ 3), 0, flesh

stat_mental Leadership +5, normal, untrained

type Peasant Archers
dictionary Peasant_Archers ; Peasant Archers
category infantry
class missile
voice_type Light
banner faction main_missile
banner holy crusade
soldier Peasant_Archers, 48, 0, 0.8
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, stakes, stakes
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 1, arrow, 120, 30, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 5, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, knife, 25, 0.8
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 4, 0, flesh
;stat_armour_ex 0, 2, 3, 0, 2, 0, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 4
stat_mental 5, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 144, 100, 20, 120, 144, 4, 60
armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 2
armour_ug_models Peasant_Archers, Peasant_Archers_ug1, Peasant_Archers_ug2
ownership bretonnia
era 0 bretonnia
era 1 bretonnia
era 2 bretonnia
;unit_info 3, 5, 2

Bretonnian Mounted Yeoman (Hobilars)

stat_pri (WS+3 + Spear+3, Strength+3), no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1.5

stat_sec (WS+3 + handweapon+1, Strength+3) , 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 2

stat_pri_armour (Light Armour+2, Normal Mount+1), (Weapon Skill+3 + Toughness+ 3), (light shield+4), flesh

stat_mental Leadership +6, normal, untrained

type Hobilars
dictionary Hobilars ; Hobilars
category cavalry
class light
voice_type Light
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier Hobilars, 24, 0, 1
mount pony
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 9, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1.5
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 7, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 2
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 6, 4, leather
;stat_armour_ex 2, 3, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5
stat_ground 0, -2, -10, 2
stat_mental 6, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 270, 110, 25, 155, 270, 4, 80
armour_ug_levels 1, 2
armour_ug_models Hobilars, Hobilars_ug1
ownership england, slave
era 0 england
era 1 england
;unit_info 3, 0, 3

Questing Knight

stat_pri (Weapon Skill+6 + Strength+6 + Great Weapon+4), (Elite Cavalry Charge=8), no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1.5

stat_pri_armour (Heavy Armour+6, Warhorse+2),(Weapon Skill+6 +Toughness+ 3), 0, metal

type Knights Templar
dictionary Knights_Templar ; Knights Templar
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_cavalry
banner unit templars
soldier Knights_Templar, 24, 0, 1
mount mailed horse
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, knight
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 2, square, wedge
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 16, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 2
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 9, 0, metal
;stat_armour_ex 5, 6, 0, 0, 5, 6, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 7
stat_ground 0, -2, -10, 2
stat_mental 10, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 840, 185, 40, 230, 840, 4, 250
armour_ug_levels 3, 4
armour_ug_models Knights_Templar, Knights_Templar_ug1
ownership england, scotland, france, denmark, milan, venice, papal_states, sicily, poland, hungary
;unit_info 11, 0, 16

[uanime5]

stat_pri_armour 6, 9, 0, metal
;stat_armour_ex 5, 6, 0, 0, 5, 6, 6, metal

These two need to match each other of the game will create an error message. In the above case it should be:

stat_pri_armour  6, 9, 0, metal
;stat_armour_ex   6, 0, 0, 0, 9, 0, 0, metal

[Casuir]

No it wont the second line isnt used by the game.

[Jargon]

Its difficult to test battle stats in MTW, does medium difficulty not add any extra modifiers into the mix? I have been pitting Grave Guard against Tomb Guard, which should be a fair fight, but the Grave Guard almost always win. Is it the MTW units that I am basing them off? Iv'e tried changing Tomb Guard from Tabardariyya to Hashishim as I thought the two handed axe may have been the problem, but that doesnt seem to be it.

I tried adding in Ushabti to see how well a super unit went. A unit of Ushabti straight up against a unit of Grave Guard usually leaves the Ushabti dead. If I hit the Grave guard with another unit like skeletons or Tomb guard first and hit them with the Ushbati from the side, this has a better effect. Should they be powerful enough to take on Grave Guard ont heir own? Maybe its the size of 75 men vs 16 thats just too much, as their stats are excellent.

Skeleton Warrior

stat_pri (WS+1, Strength+3, Hand Weapon+1), (Light Infantry Charge=2), no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, knife, 25, 0.8

stat_pri_armour (light Armour=2), (Weapon Skill+1 + Toughness+3), (light shield +2) 0, flesh

type ME Peasants
dictionary ME_Peasants ; Peasants
category infantry
class light
voice_type Light
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier ME_Peasants, 60, 0, 1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, is_peasant, peasant, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 6, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, knife, 25, 0.8
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 4, 2, flesh
;stat_armour_ex 0, 2, 0, 0, 2, 0, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 3, low, untrained, lock_morale
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 210, 40, 25, 210, 90, 4, 20
armour_ug_levels 0, 1
armour_ug_models ME_Peasants, ME_Peasants_ug1
ownership moors, egypt, turks, mongols, timurids, slave
era 0 moors, egypt, turks, mongols, timurids
era 1 moors, egypt, turks, mongols, timurids
era 2 moors, egypt, turks, mongols, timurids
;unit_info 2, 0, 2

Tomb Guard (Hashishim)

stat_pri (weapon skill+3 + Strength+6 + Hand Weapon+1 + Tomb Blads +3), (elite unit charge=5), no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 0.4

stat_pri_armour (light armour 2), (Weapon Skill+3 + Toughness+6 ), (shield=4), metal

type Hashishim
dictionary Hashishim ; Hashashim
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Hashishim, 48, 0, 1.2
attributes sea_faring, very_hardy, can_withdraw, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 2, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 13, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 9, 4, metal
;stat_armour_ex 4, 0, 0, 0, 5, 8, 8, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 1, 1, 0, -2
stat_mental 11, disciplined, trained, lock_morale
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 630, 250, 35, 205, 630, 4, 250
armour_ug_levels 3
armour_ug_models Hashishim
ownership moors, egypt, turks
era 1 moors, egypt, turks
era 2 moors, egypt, turks
;unit_info 14, 0, 34

Ushubati (Tabardariyya)

stat_pri (weapon skill+6 + Strength+8 + Huge Ritual Blades+5), (large unit charge=6), no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 0.4

stat_pri_armour (undead Construct+4), (Weapon Skill+6 + Toughness+6 ), (no shield), metal

type Tabardariyya
dictionary Tabardariyya ; Tabardariyya
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Tabardariyya, 12, 0, 1.2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraw, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 3, 0
stat_pri 19, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 0.4
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 4, 12, 0, metal
;stat_armour_ex 4, 6, 0, 0, 10, 0, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 10, normal, highly_trained, lock_morale
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1170, 175, 30, 180, 1170, 4, 150
armour_ug_levels 3, 4
armour_ug_models Tabardariyya, Tabardariyya_ug1
ownership egypt
era 1 egypt
era 2 egypt
;unit_info 19, 0, 14

Grave Guard (Dismounted Druchima)

stat_pri (Weapon Skill+3 + Strength+6 + Hand Weapon+1 Wight Blade +3), (Elite infantry charge=5), no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 1.5

stat_pri_armour (Heavy armour=6), (Weapon Skill+3 + Toughness+6), 4, metal


type Dismounted Druchima
dictionary Dismounted_Druchima ; Dismounted Druzhina
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Dismounted_Druchima, 48 0, 1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 13, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 9, 4, metal
;stat_armour_ex 3, 4, 0, 0, 4, 8, 8, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 6
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 8, normal, trained, lock_morale
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 630, 150, 30, 165, 630, 4, 160
armour_ug_levels 2, 3
armour_ug_models Dismounted_Druchima, Dismounted_Druchima_ug1
ownership russia
era 0 russia
era 1 russia
;unit_info 9, 0, 15

Stat List used:

Armour List:

Normal Mount= +1
Special/Barded Mount= +2
Light Armour= +2
Scaly Skin 6+= +3
Undead Construct= +4
Scaly Skin 4+= +5
Heavy Armour= +6
Chaos Armour= +7


Light Shield= +2???
Shield= +4
Heavy Shield= +8???

Weapon/Strength/Ballistic Skill List:

1= +0
2= +1
3 = +3
4= +6
5= +7
6= +8
7= +9

Ranged Weapon Strength:

Javelin= 2
Bow= 2

Weapon List

Hand Weapon +1
Spear+3
Lance +3
Great Weapon +3
Halberd
Ethereal
Huge Ritual Blades +5
Flail

Tomb Blades +3
Wight Blade +3
Poisoned Attack= +3

Charge:

Light Archer= 1
Light infantry= 2
Standard infantry=3
Elite/Special Infantry=5
Large sized infantry= 6
Light Archer Cavalry= 3
Light Cavalry= 4
Cavalry= 6
Elite Cavalry= 8
Cavalry secondary weapon close combat= 50% normal charge

Mental:

Undead= lock_morale
Questing Vow= +2 morale

Attacks:

Braindead= 1.5
1= 1
2= .7
3= .4
4= .3

Wounds:

1= 1
2= 2
3= 3
4= 4

Unit Size:

Light Archer= 48
Standard Infantry= 60
Special/Elite Infantry= 48
Large Monster unit= 12
Light cavalry= 40
Standard cavalry= 35
Elite cavalry= 24

[Casuir]

Animations play a part in combat,use two units with the same animation sets for now. Your stats look off though, have you worked out an actually formula based on warhammer combat or are you just assigning numbers off the top of your head? The ws/str/bs list you have there looks like its going to unbalance things for a start, the numbers should be related to each other in some way.

[Jargon]

Iv'e tried not to assign any numbers arbitarily, and made everything relate to Warhammer in some respect. If a special rule for Zombies is that they are Brain Dead, then I have tried to convert that as a 0.5 increase to their attack speed (slowing down). If a unit has magic or poisoned weapons, then that becomes a very specific bonus to attack that is balanced to the effect of other weapons. If some of the numbers seem like they have been chosen at random, its because I am trying to convert information that has no equal in the MTW game system..

When you say some of the numbers are off, are you able to give specific examples? At the top of each units stat sheet I have listed the changes I made for each unit (except the mental section) so that everything I have done is transparent and easily modifable by others. I am purposefully trying to display my method of thinking so it is easily to comment on.

The first number of "stat pri" is based on a combination of weapon skill, strength and the type of hand weapon employed. The second number is the charge based on the type of unit, so elite infantry have a larger charge than light archers.

The first number of "stat_pri_armour" is the type of armour, and the second is a combination of toughness and weapon skill. The third is to do with shields, but I am currently having trouble with that.

The way I have ws/str/bs converted now:

1= +0
2= +1
3 = +3
4= +6
5= +7
6= +8
7= +9

The reason I have created a jump between 3 and 4 is because of the way Warhammer gaming works. The difference between weapon skill 2 and weapon skill 4 is a difference of 2, which would mean very little in MTW, but in Warhammer table top gaming it can mean an extra 20-30% chance of success. The jump is intended to differentiate this. If someone can think up a more intelligent system then great, this is just the best I could come up with at the moment.

It could be changed to something more symetrical:

1= +0
2= +1
3 = +3
4= +5
5= +7
6= +9
7= +11

Or the numbers could be converted by multipliers or any other good ideas people can suggest.

[Casuir]

Specific examples of arbitrarily assigned values? Huge ritual blades for one, you've given a unit which carries these +5 whereas in the tabletop game theres no specific bonuses for these weapons. So Ushutabi get an additional bonus increasing their attack by a third of what it should be by a straight stat conversion. Great weapons give a +2 bonus to strength in the game which under your system translates into +4 if the units strength is 3, otherwise its a +2 bonus.

The system you have for armour looks dodgy as well, the values you've given some of the armour types dont match what they are in the game, scaly skin +6, light armour and having a mount all give the same bonus for example. It should be based on the actual saving throw the unit has, not an arbitrary value based on . Also the way you have the armour values set is wrong, under your system a unit being shot at only gets the benefit of its armour whereas in the tabletop game toughness is also taken into account. Shields as well look wrong with the bonus granted being twice what it should be going on the values you've given for light armour. Also units with shields get an additional +1 to their armour save which is applied only in close combat.

Charge bonuses are another area, the only bonuses you get in the tabletop game are related to the weapons carried, adding bonuses based on unit types is going to unbalance things. The values here should be based on the strength bonuses some weapons give when attacking and in proportion to how strenght is factored into the base attack skill.

This is what I mean by arbitrarily assigning values, it might relate to warhamer but by no means is it going to give accurate results as I think your tests show. Comparing your stats with the tabletop ones: from left attack factor, total defence (the value they would have in a straight one on one frontal clash), weapon skill, strength, toughness and saving throw.
ST: A .D W S T Sve
TG:13 15 3 4 4 5+
GG:13 19 3 4 4 4+
US:19 16 4 6 4 5+
Instead of being equal grave guard have nearly 33% extra defence compared to tomb guard while the only difference tabletop wise is an extra +1 saving throw. Ushubati's extra +1 in weapon skill gives them just that in comparison to tomb guard despite the large jump in stat bonus you've given there. Attack bonuses look alright but remember the ushubati have a +5 bonus they shouldnt have and the extra +3 you give the other two is uncertain, adding a bonus for the killing blow rule would unbalance the unit against units with just one wound and I cant find the benefits of a magical weapon in combat in the rulebook. Compare these with your questing knight:
ST: A .D W S T Sve
QK:16 15 4 4 3 2+
Obviously somethings off here defence wise, an extra 3+ saving throw and +1 in weapon skill shouldnt be the same as a +1 in toughness, right?

Dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to discourage you here but this needs to be done right. It needs a concrete formula behind it rather than just saying this is equal to this, adding a few values together and seeing if it works.

[Jargon]

Discouraged? Anything but, your information is tremendously helpful, thanks. I'm not mired in what i have previously done, and only hoped to generate discussion (although no on else has yet to contribute) even if it meant posting bad information. Because you argued rationaly about the stats is easy to see how it should be converted.

Almost all the stats need to change. I'm not sure why I gave Huge Ritual Blades such a bonus, I guess I thought they were like improved Tomb Blades for some reason. They should be on par with great weapons. The way you explained the saving throws in relation to defence makes sense. It needs lots of work, but I dont think we are stressed for time at the moment so we can get it right.

[overkill1991]

If i understand it correctly you guys want to use tabletop stats and kinda make it to the game right ?


a problem is that if you base your game stats of the tabletop stats it isnt accurate. this is because the tabletop stats and the lore are very different.

example : in tabletop a bloodthirster would beat all hero characters such as Teclis, Malekith, Archaeon etc..

but in lore these heroes are all capable of killing a bloodthirster(or even multiple greater demons) in single combat.



i hope you guys understand what im trying to say.

and sorry if you guys were not trying to base the game stats of the tabletop stats, then i musunderstood what you guys were saying.

[Bwian]

Luckily, we don;t have hero characters in TW games, so we CAN look more to the stats.

[Casuir]

We'll seeing how the lore is there to support the actual game and not the other way round I think tabletop stats take preference. Superpowerful generals capable of taking on whole armies would unbalance the whole game.

Jargon, like other things balancing the units is lower priority than making them at the mo so you'll probably be working on this on your own for a while.

[Jargon]

No problem, I gave it a go when i found some free time last weekend, maybe i'll have another crack at it this coming weekend.

[uanime5]

There's a form on TWC in which Point Blank is converting the attacks of Kingdoms units to be more realistic (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=1620). While these are not Warhammer conversions his 'RealCombat 1.3 Guide.rtf' does provide a lot of information about how effective various weapon types were.