Global warming

[Byzantine Mercenary]

during the course of another disscussion in the forums i saw the subject of global warming (very briefly) come up, and i wanted to get some opinions, i personally have always held that it is real and very threatening and it was more a matter of establishing how much will change will occur and how best to prevent it,

is there anyone out there that doesn't agree?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Somebody make it go away . Not again please dont get me started

[Byzantine Mercenary]

what do you mean?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I mean this should be a sticky. Its one of the most debated topics in the history of these boards along with Israel - Palestine and Christianity and Islam.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

i agree,

it is a far reaching topic,

but i think that as a scientific disscussion views (should) change as the data does, so a disscussion may well be more fruitful on this topic then a disscussion on politics and religion?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

so a disscussion may well be more fruitful on this topic then a disscussion on politics and religion?

Since all three are intertwined I doubt it. Obviously youve never seen this disscussion. I will fight you tooth and nail

[Byzantine Mercenary]

yeah ive been gone a while

im more talking about the science of it then who should do what, what area of global warming is being disputed is it the warming or its suggested cause?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

what area of global warming is being disputed is it the warming or its suggested cause?

No one denies its happening. And its slightly more than a suggested cause.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

exactly, so you dont dispute global warming?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

exactly, so you dont dispute global warming?

I dont dispute the planets getting warmer if thats what you mean. If thats is what you mean you might as well close this thread because not a soul here will argue that point.

[Xiahou]

I dont dispute the planets getting warmer if thats what you mean. If thats is what you mean you might as well close this thread because not a soul here will argue that point.

Now if you want to talk about how much warmer, how warm is too warm, and what is making the planet warmer.....

[JR-]

during the course of another disscussion in the forums i saw the subject of global warming (very briefly) come up, and i wanted to get some opinions, i personally have always held that it is real and very threatening and it was more a matter of establishing how much will change will occur and how best to prevent it,

is there anyone out there that doesn't agree?

The earth is certainly warming naturally. The earth has always fluctuated greatly in temeprature.

We are certainly having an impact on this fluctuation. Though what percentage this forms of the total is unknown.

The real question for me, is whether it is better to spend human wealth on accommodating humans to this new environment, or whether that wealth should be spent trying freeze the world in its current climatic state?

The first option represents what we, and every other successful species, have always done in the face of climactic adversity; evolved ourselves and our way of living to fit the new reality.

The second option represents what every failed civilisation in history has tried in the face of its decline; it has tried to reinforce against its failing and is in essence similar to extinct species.

Of course we should continue to enact environmental legislation that prevents us poisoning the land we live on, and yes we should encourage clean industry because efficiency is something to be desired from an economic standpoint as well as an environmental one, but most of all we should promote efficient consumption that reduces the necessary level of production.

However for me, the idea of trying to halt climate change on earth is very akin to attempting to air-condition your car whilst having the windows open, you are in essence trying to air-condition the entire world which is:
a) impossible - much like ignoring the impact of the sun/universe on our little earth. *
b) grossly inefficient in achieving its aims - money would be better spent providing weather-safe housing and infrastructure, clean water, and medical care. **
c) unethical - who determined that our present global climactic state is the optimum level ever achieved in earths history, and for whom? ***

* Q - "ah, but what about the scientific consensus?" A - this is foolish, we know too little to form any consensus in any direction.

** Q - "ah, but why don't we build houses and reduce CO2?" A - this is foolish, high public spending damages growth, and growth lifts people out of poverty.

*** Q - "ah, but thinking you know better is very arrogant is it not?" A - this is foolish, some people will benefit, some people will suffer, those people who are not given the opportunity to adapt will die, those who won't adapt in spite of the ability to do so will deserve to die.

This is of course a greatly simplified view, i too would like to see broadly stable global climate (after all, not having to adapt to a new reality is nice and easy), but for me it boils down to this:
Will humankind see greater future benefit were we to spend 0.5% of World GDP for the next 100 years from either; halting CO2 level change, or; improving the human condition?
I would argue for the latter, after all the earth is in constant fluctuation, and we will always have to adapt to meet it.

What happens when we get the next magnetic reversal and thus have no mechanism to protect us from solar and galactic radiation? It could happen any time from tomorrow onwards, but it is overdue and will result in roughly one thousand years of earth's irradiation.
Judging by the current response, we will have thousands of scientists claiming a unanimous consensus that we should spend the totality of human wealth digging to the centre of the earth whereupon we will install moon sized paddles to force circulation of the outer core, thus generating a new artificial magnetic field!

It is also (IMO), an act of staggering hubris, that we might imagine we have enough knowledge and power to control global climate at will.

So there you are, my views in brief.

[Rodion Romanovich]

The first option represents what we, and every other successful species, have always done in the face of climactic adversity; evolved ourselves and our way of living to fit the new reality.

The second option represents what every failed civilisation in history has tried in the face of its decline; it has tried to reinforce against its failing and is in essence similar to extinct species.

Slaves adapt to their environment. Masters adapt the environment to themselves. Successful species don't settle with adapting themselves to what exists, but make sure that what exists remains: population sizes in animal herds are regulated so they don't extinct their food sources. Successful predators don't extinct their prey, successful herbivores don't create deserts out of the fertile land.

By the way, no animal species is adapting itself to a new environment. It's the environment that brutally kills loads of animals who can't stand the new environment, until only a small number of animals, which may be an entirely different species, are still alive.

Not to mention the fact that all methods for adapting mankind to living in higher temperatures involve increased pollution which increases temperature even further. Air conditioning only contributes to more global warming. Only way to turn the tide is to 1. halt emissions and imposing population growth limitations, or 2. global mass death of human beings by war, starvation, overheating and genocide, or 3. hope that through some miracle we can learn to improve our technology about 10-1000 times faster than we've ever improved technology before in history.

I prefer option no. 1.

[Rodion Romanovich]

you are in essence trying to air-condition the entire world

No, pollution supporters are trying to barbeque the entire world.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Slaves adapt to their environment. Masters adapt the environment to themselves.

And this is the big problem with all you global warming guys. We are not the masters of the earth. Just look at all those jerks who live near volcanoes. Nothing you can do when mother nature raises her wrath. Nature is the master not man. 99% of every species that has ever been is now extinct.

No, pollution supporters are trying to barbeque the entire world.

There are no pollution supporters.

[R'as al Ghul]

Only way to turn the tide is to 1. halt emissions and imposing population growth limitations, [..]
I prefer option no. 1.

Well, if we stop the emissions the effect of Global dimming (darkening of the atmosphere by pollution) will decrease, the warming will accelerate and the effect on the earth will be even stronger than today.

[Rodion Romanovich]

It is also IMO an act of staggering hubris, that we might imagine we have enough knowledge and power to control global climate at will.

http://www.geography.hunter.cuny.edu....pollution.jpg
http://www.hickerphoto.com/data/medi..._pollution.jpg
http://www.dmr.state.ms.us/Coastal-E.../pollution.gif
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ollution_1.jpg
http://www.lizasreef.com/HOPE%20FOR%...ollution_1.jpg
http://www.destinationchine.com/dala...-pollution.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertification

[Rodion Romanovich]

Well, if we stop the emissions the effect of Global dimming (darkening of the atmosphere by pollution) will decrease, the warming will accelerate and the effect on the earth will be even stronger than today.

No. Incoming light has shorter wavelengths than outgoing light. Getting rid of gases that are better at stopping long wavelengths will lower temperatures. I don't think you've understood the principle behind global warming.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculu5
It is also IMO an act of staggering hubris, that we might imagine we have enough knowledge and power to control global climate at will.

http://www.geography.hunter.cuny.edu....pollution.jpg
http://www.hickerphoto.com/data/medi..._pollution.jpg
http://www.dmr.state.ms.us/Coastal-E.../pollution.gif
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ollution_1.jpg
http://www.lizasreef.com/HOPE%20FOR%...ollution_1.jpg
http://www.destinationchine.com/dala...-pollution.jpg

Maybe I should post some pictures of the antartic or Alaska

This is my biggest gripe with global warming

* Q - "ah, but what about the scientific consensus?" A - this is foolish, we know too little to form any consensus in any direction.

We dont have near enough knowledge and the cure could be worse than the disease. Its not like it threatens to end the world or man kind. Better to learn to adapt than play god. The earth will change drasticly no matter what we do.

[Rodion Romanovich]

And this is the big problem with all you global warming guys. We are not the masters of the earth.

Perhaps then, if we're not masters of it, we should stop trying to barbeque it and adapt to it, instead of changing it significantly.

Nature is the master not man.

Good that you're finally realizing this.

There are no pollution supporters.

How can you support continued pollution without being a pollution supporter?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Maybe I should post some pictures of the antartic or Alaska

I can do that for you:
http://environment.about.com/od/heal...laskawaste.htm

This is my biggest gripe with global warming

We dont have near enough knowledge and the cure could be worse than the disease. Its not like it threatens to end the world or man kind. Better to learn to adapt than play god. The earth will change drasticly no matter what we do.

We're doing something actively to increase global temperatures. I find it odd that you can at the same time say we don't know anything about it, and that we still should continue to actively work to do something we don't know if it will increase temperatures by 5 degrees or 30 degrees in the coming 10 years of the coming 30 years.

[JR-]

http://www.geography.hunter.cuny.edu....pollution.jpg
http://www.hickerphoto.com/data/medi..._pollution.jpg
http://www.dmr.state.ms.us/Coastal-E.../pollution.gif
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ollution_1.jpg
http://www.lizasreef.com/HOPE%20FOR%...ollution_1.jpg
http://www.destinationchine.com/dala...-pollution.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertification

thanks for the vast pile of irrelevance.

[Rodion Romanovich]

thanks for the vast pile of irrelevance.

You're welcome

[R'as al Ghul]

No. Incoming light has shorter wavelengths than outgoing light. Getting rid of gases that are better at stopping long wavelengths will lower temperatures. I don't think you've understood the principle behind global warming.

So, you dispute the idea of Global Dimming or why do you think I've not understood?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Global Warming Side A -- Mankind is at fault:

Presumption #1: The current global climate, or at least the climate extent at the beginning of the 20th century, is more-or-less ideal and only "natural" variations thereto should be tolerated.

Presumption #2: Human emissions of "greenhouse" gasses/pollutants are making a statistically significant impact on increased global temperatures.

Note: "Human-made GW" proponents view this to be a proven fact and do not consider the evidence therefore to be in dispute. They would not label it a presumption.

-- From this model, the emphasis should be on a rapid and fairly radical reduction of those human activities that encourage global warming so as to return Terra to a heating/cooling cycle that is "natural." Essentially, they see continued behavior in our current mode as insane since they believe it to be actively suicidal.

Side Note: One of the things "Human-made GW" opponents find annoying in this is the implication that humans are an abberation to and not part of their own environment.


Global Warming Side B -- Mankind is not at fault:

Presumption #1: Yes, Terra is warming, but the primary agent for this is natural: Sol's radiation and those emissions that occur naturally via volcanoes etc. Human influence on such changes are statistically insignificant.

Preumption #2: Too much of the scientific "proof" for humankind's responsibility for Global Warming has become conflated with a larger "anti-haves" political agenda and is therefore suspect.

-- From this model, the emphasis should be on developing a better sense of what and how climate changes occur so that we can more readily adapt to same. Radical restructuring of human endeavor would be, at best, premature.


Thanks, Byz Merc, for starting htis up again. Remind me to kill you in a mafia game sometime.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

ok this is what ive been told about global dimming

global dimming is caused by small particles in the atmosphere that reflect incoming light or act as cloud nuclei, they can be produced when you burn stuff like coal or diesel and from Sulfate aerosols, as we have cleaned up our act and switched to fuels that produce less soot and have stopped using as many Sulfate aerosols the effect has reduced, so while stopping emissions of soot or Sulfate aerosols could indeed warm the planet up stopping cleaner co2 emissions, in general, wont.

incedentally i would not regard humans as an abbarition to the natural enviroment, it it the technologys that we employ that are such, the plants and animals of earth are simply not adapted to them.

also i believe that current reasearch shows that this warming is at such a rate that does not generally occur naturally and definately is not set to occur at a rate which is slow enough for earths animals and plants to adapt to via evoloution, of course climate change is not nessesarly wrong as such but we will most likely see a dramatic reduction in biodiversity as life adjusts, and a good deal of human lives could be at risk

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I can do that for you:
http://environment.about.com/od/heal...laskawaste.htm

No picture there.

Heres some examples of recent global warming. laugh.gif

....On Thursday April 19, 2007 Canadian Coast Guard ice breakers are smashing through pack ice in a bid to free about 100 sealing vessels stuck off the northeast coast and southern Labrador. Local fishermen say the ice conditions are the worst they've seen in more than 20 years.....

.....The first ten days of April 2007 are the coldest in 113 years.....

.....Through Monday April 9, 2007 in Painesdale, MI the five day snow total is now up to 64.5".....

.....On Easter Sunday morning April 8, 2007 frozen precipitation in the form of ice pellets (sleet) fell in the north Florida town of Mary Esther. Tentatively this is a new record for the latest observance of frozen precipitation in the state. Subfreezing minimum temperatures also visited the state of Florida. The cold spot was 28 degrees at Eddy Tower RAWS. Minimum temperatures in the mid 30's dipped as far south as the inland rural south peninsula region, with 36 degrees at Miles City RAWS. The minimum temperatures were some 20-30 degrees below normal. The last time that the sunshine state saw similar April abnormally cold temperature was in 1971 and also 1950.....

.....Beginning on Sunday April 1, 2007 an unusually late season cold wave engulfed the eastern 2/3's of the U.S. Record breaking low minimum temperatures and record high snow fall totals have occurred with this outbreak. On Saturday morning April 7, 2007 snow began falling in north and NE Texas extending eastward into northern Louisiana. The snow could reach the Gulf Coast from New Orleans, LA to Mobile, AL to Pensacola, FL. In Florida subfreezing temperatures are possible on early Easter Sunday morning April 8, 2007 as far south as the inland rural west and middle central peninsula, down to S.R. 52 and west of U.S. 17. A pocket of subfreezing temperatures is also possible across the inland rural south central peninsula. Special weather statement from NWS Tampa Bay, Ruskin, FL. http://kamala.cod.edu/fl/latest.nous42.KTBW.html .....

.....On Monday March 12, 2007 a North Pole expedition meant to bring attention to harmful man induced global warming was called off after one of the explorers got frostbite. The explorers, Ann Bancroft and Liv Arnesen, on Saturday March 10th called off what was intended to be a 530-mile trek across the Arctic Ocean after Arnesen suffered frostbite in three of her toes, and extreme cold temperatures drained the batteries in some of their electronic equipment. The brutal temperature that they experienced quite a bit colder, Atwood said, then Bancroft and Arnesen had expected. One night they measured the temperature inside their tent at 58 degrees below zero, and outside temperatures were exceeding 100 below zero at times, Atwood said. They were experiencing temperatures that weren't expected with global warming, DOH.....
.....The minimum temperature on Mt. Mansfield, VT on March 6, 2007 was -28 deg. F, breaking the old record of -25 deg. F set in 1955. On March 7, 2007 numerous minimum temperature records fell across Vermont at lower elevations. Missisquoi River at an elevation of 410 feet saw a minimum temperature of -37 deg. F. Island Pond at an elevation of 1201 feet saw a minimum temperature of -35 deg. F.....

.....The minimum temperature on Mt. Washington, NH on March 7, 2007 was -30 deg. F, breaking the old record of -21 deg. F set in 1937.....

.....The minimum temperature on Mt. Washington, NH on March 6, 2007 was -37 deg. F, breaking the old record of -23 deg. F set in 1950. The -37 deg. F reading fell short by one degree of the all time coldest March temperature of -38 deg. F set in 1950.....

.....In Toronto, Ontario, Canada February 2007 was the coldest since February 1912.....

.....In Boston, MA the minimum temperature dropped to 6 degrees on March 6, 2007, the coldest March minimum temperature since March 10, 1984.....

.....Over the past few day's New England has been suffering through an unusually cold late season Arctic airmass. For Massachusetts March 6, 2007 was the coldest March 6th since 1950.....

.....On June 1, 2005 measurable snow fell for the first time in recorded history in tropical Somalia. It fell at an elevation of 1000 feet at Puntland in the NE part of the country. Ironically the freak snowstorm was blamed on man induced global warming....

.....Per the BBC, during the week of February 12, 2007 snow fell in Nepal's capital, Katmandu for the first time since 1944, 63 years.....

.....During the week of February 19, 2007 snow fell in portions of Argentina that have never seen snow so early in the season (late summer). A comparison would be snow in Philadelphia, PA on August 19th.....

.....On February 17, 2007 a minimum temperature of 18.6 deg. F was observed at Holder in Citrus County (the west central peninsula) of Florida. This temperature was the coldest ever observed so late in the winter season.....
.....On February 15, 2007 it snowed in Pensacola Florida. This is the fourth time this winter season that frozen precipitation has fallen in Florida.....

.....On January 15, 2007 Lancaster, CA broke their monthly record, coming within one degree of their all-time record low temperature. LANCASTER TEMPERATURE OF 03 DEGREES TODAY SET A NEW MONTHLY RECORD FOR JANUARY. THE COLDEST ALL TIME RECORD FOR LANCASTER WAS 02 DEGREES SET DECEMBER 24 1984.....

.....Snow showers fell across portions of the central peninsula of Florida east of U.S. 41 and north of S.R. 50 during the Tuesday evening-Wednesday morning period November 21-22, 2006, including the Orlando metro area. The snow showers were the earliest ever observed on the central peninsula and state and reported since European settlers arrived. On the morning of November 22, 2006 Archbold which is located on the south central peninsula region observed a minimum temperature of 28 deg.....

.....It snowed in downtown Los Angeles for the first time in modern times on Saturday February 18, 2006.....

.....During the first two weeks of February 2006 all of Alaska with the exception of the panhandle region was in the grip of extreme below zero temperature. Inland area temperatures repeatedly dropped into the -50 to -65 deg. F below zero range.....

.....During the first week of December 2005 the coldest minimum temperatures ever observed so early in the season chilled the lower 48 states, with the exception of the Florida Peninsula. Below zero daytime readings dipped deep into Colorado and Kansas, with night time sub zero readings into west Texas. Frozen precipitation fell at Corpus Christi and Brownsville, TX and into northern Mexico S-SW of Brownsville and Del Rio. Some north and central Plains region areas saw minimum temperatures in the -20 to -30 deg. below zero range.....

.....November 2005 was the coldest in the last 30 years in the northern Great Plains, Mid West and Great Lakes regions.....

....During Southern Hemisphere Winter 2005 Russia's Vostok base on the ice cap of East Antarctica set the new all time coldest minimum temperature on Earth of -132 deg. below zero. The previous record was -129 deg below zero......

.....Tuesday was even colder than usual at Russia's Vostok base on the ice cap of East Antarctica. The high of -101 degrees was fully 25 degrees below average for early May. The low was -104 degrees, or about 15 degrees below average.....

.....Monday April 25, 2005 a 31.9 deg. minimum temperature is observed in central Florida. Two other locations observed 32 deg. I've been keeping track of temperature in Florida since 1965 and this is the latest 32 deg. minimum temperature during that time period.....

.....Sunday-Monday April 24-25, 2005. A record breaking late season snowfall has occurred in parts of Indiana, Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania. Snowfall totals of up to 12-24" have been measured.

.....Sunday April 17, 2005 a 31.8 deg. minimum temperature is observed in central Florida.....

.....Greater Havana, Cuba, dawned rather chilly Monday morning April 4, 2005. At the Jose Marti international airport south of the city's center, the temperature dipped to 50 degrees whereas the average daily low during April is 70. A minimum temperature of 31.6 deg. was also observed in central Florida.....

.....Late season chill has descended on southeast Europe. At the same time, moisture streaming in from the Mediterranean has produced snow over parts of Turkey. The mountainous terrain over central Turkey has had a few inches of snow. Even in the capital city, Ankara, the snow managed to accumulate as temperatures were just below freezing and the snow was briefly heavy.....

.....The snowfall at Cleveland Hopkins airport for the day is 6.4 inches. This brings the snowfall total for the 2004-2005 season to 105.3 inches, which breaks the all time record for the snowiest season at Cleveland Hopkins airport, which was 101.1 inches in 1995-1996.....

.....The coldest March night on record occurred across the Netherlands this past Thursday night. Sub-zero readings were
recorded across the country. Marknesse fell to an overnight low of -5F. Such cold weather capped a week of heavy snows which buried some parts of the country under 20 inches. This winter has been the snowiest in the past 50 years for the Netherlands.....

.....Snow-covered palm trees in the Mediterranean, travel chaos on the continent and a rise in heating costs are the results of an unusual European cold snap.....

.....In some parts of The Netherlands snowfall was up to 20 inches, the highest levels recorded for March in the past 20 to 25 years, the Dutch meteorological institute said.....

.....Italy's port city of Genoa was paralyzed by a blanket of rare late winter white stuff that caused traffic chaos as far away as Milan, in one of the coldest starts to March on record, meteorologists said. Authorities closed Genoa airport, shut city schools and ordered buses off the roads as a blizzard blanketed the Liguria coastline. Milan also got a rare covering of snow during the morning, as did the nearby cities of Turin and Parma. In Turin, the thermometer fell to a record 17 Fahrenheit overnight, while Rome suffered its coldest March for 18 years.....

.....Heavy snowfall and below-freezing temperatures across most of northern and central Greece this week have cut off dozens of mountain villages, blocked roads and led authorities to close some schools.....

.....In Spain, renowned for its warm winter sunshine in parts, palm trees in the Mediterranean city of Barcelona have been topped with snow and Madrid has seen its heaviest snowfall for about 15 years.....

.....One of the worst winters in decades continues to bring heavy snows and cold air to Afghanistan and Pakistan. In Pakistan, over 300 people have died from the series of heavy snowfalls in the past few weeks. The heavy snows have stranded over hundreds of thousands of people in Kashmir.....

.....Monday dawned with bitter cold in much of central Quebec, Canada. At Lac Benoit, for example, the early morning low was -48 degrees. Near Manouane, -46 degrees was registered early Monday, and the -43 degrees registered at Bonnard was a full 30 degrees below average.....

.....Heavy snowfall in Indian-controlled Kashmir has claimed more than 100 lives, and dozens were still missing Monday, the BBC reported. The snow created avalanches over villages south of Srinagar, destroying homes and killing about 70 people. Indian soldiers and medical personnel were searching for survivors Monday in the region, where 15 feet of snow has fallen since Friday.....

.....Snow this week has once again whitened northernmost Africa. In Algeria, the city of Constantine lay under seven inches of snow early Wednesday. A few weeks ago the same region was hit with 24-26" of the white stuff.....

.....In far northern Norway, the town of Kautokeino set consecutive lows of -27 and -26 degrees Monday and Tuesday. These were followed by afternoon highs of -12 and -10 degrees. In February, an average day here would have a low of 0 and a high of 13 degrees, so the weather has been considerably colder than usual.....

.....An impressive cold wave persisted over much of the Balkan Peninsula Friday. Night-times this week have been especially frigid over the region owing to clear skies, light winds and, in many places, a thick snow cover. In Serbia, Sjenica registered consecutive lows of -17, -21, -21, -19 and -20 degrees F. Monday through Friday whereas February's mean daily low is 23. Bitola, Macedonia, dipped 11 to 14 degrees below zero each of these five mornings.....

.....Cold rains and mountain snows fell early this week along the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea. The latest bout of wet weather boosted rainfall at Beirut, Lebanon, to about six inches since the start of the month. Snow fell low enough to blanket ground down to at least 1000 feet, thereby whitening the hills from Lebanon south into Israel and the West Bank, and also to Amman, Jordan.....

.....Northwestern Canada's Yukon Territory has been much colder than usual so far this February. The first six days of the month in Dawson, for example, registered a minus-40-degree average temperature with this mark 28 degrees below the mean. Tuesday to Wednesday were even colder than usual in northwestern Canada's Yukon Territory. Wednesday, the temperature dipped to -55 degrees in Old Crow and -52 degrees in Dawson; these marks were 25-30 degrees below average for early February. Earlier in the season the same region was struck with -60 to -65 deg. below zero F temperatures.....

.....The weather has waxed wild over southeastern Australia early this week. It began hot (it is mid summer, after all), but cooled
dramatically following a strong cold front Tuesday into Wednesday. Take Melbourne, where Tuesday saw 99 degrees early in the afternoon. Thereafter, rainy southerly winds ushered in a chill that held temperatures between 45 and 50 degrees right through the day Wednesday. Rainfall was 2.9 inches as of Wednesday evening. The shift in temperature was even more striking inland: Griffith, New South Wales, reached a blistering 107 degrees Tuesday yet, at the same time Wednesday, the temperature was only in the lower 50s! Melbourne is on the same latitude as Washington, DC. This is a tremendous cold anomaly.....

.....Over eastern Argentina and southwestern Uruguay, a late-week blast of mid-summer heat clashing with a strong cold front sparked widespread torrential rains powered by thunderstorms. Two-day rainfall was 6.4 inches at Dolores, Argentina, and at least 6.3 inches at Carrasco, near Montevideo, Uruguay. Rainfall was 3-5 inches over greater Buenos Aires, Argentina, where Monday morning was chilly and windswept 55 degrees with 45-mph gusts. Elsewhere in Argentina, rains behind the strong cold front made Sundays an unusually cool afternoon at Neuquen: the high was 59 degrees versus an average high of 89.....

.....The 4-12" of snow that fell in Corpus Christi and Victoria, TX a few days ago occurred on the same latitude as the Tampa Bay area. Snow and sleet eventually also fell all across the Gulf Coast to north Florida.....

[JR-]

also i believe that current reasearch shows that this warming is at such a rate that does not generally occur naturally and definately is not set to occur at a rate which is slow enough for earths animals and plants to adapt to via evoloution, of course climate change is not nessesarly wrong as such but we will most likely see a dramatic reduction in biodiversity as life adjusts, and a good deal of human lives could be at risk

actually, it was becoming increasingly accepted by the geology community that catastrophic (by which they mean rapid and severe) climate change was common in geological history, quite a reserve from the previous accepted wisdom that all climate change was gradual.
this change was taking place around the year 2000 when i was studying geology.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Phew it's so hot in here I can't write an answer at the moment. I'll be back and reply the replies to my posts later, unless it gets even hotter here.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

actually, it was becoming increasingly accepted by the geology community that catastrophic (by which they mean rapid and severe) climate change was common in geological history, quite a reserve from the previous accepted wisdom that all climate change was gradual.
this change was taking place around the year 2000 when i was studying geology.

thats interesting although just because climate change is common (and even if this one is natural) it would still be damaging to current biodiversity and so a problem

i would also point out that just because its called global warming doesnt mean that the whole world will get hotter i suppose climate change is a better term for it. There could be localised coolings (especially if the gulf stream fails)

I would also point out that despite recordings such as those Gawain found the vast magority of peer review papers are suggesting climate change (to varying degrees), there is nothing i would like more then to hear that all the carbon dioxide we have produced will have little effect, but i believe that the climatologists can do a better job of analizing data such as that highlighted then me and if they are still (in the vast magority) saying global warming is a reality then im gonna believe them.

Incedentally the American Association of Petroleum Geologists is the only scientific society that rejects the conclusions of the The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, those conclusions being that:

"most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations,"

now that may not be a definate but its the most likely anser