What is a Christian

[Husar]

Also if you are being chased around with pitch forks and torches and possibly a rope held by liberals, you're a Christian.

[Pindar]

A Christian is one who believes Jesus is the Christ. Conduct is a separate issue.

I think that' s the simplest and most straightforward definition- gets my vote.

[Pindar]

This was my first idea too, but what is 'the Christ' ? Jesus=God is ehavily disputed by some, Jesus=Messiah is commonly accepted amongst christian, yet I do now some people who wouldn't subscribe to that.

The label Christ does refer to Messiah as it is simply the anglicization of the Greek for Messiah. To affirm Jesus is the Christ is thereby to affirm his Messiahship. The meaning/content of Messiah could be disputed, but arguing something at ignored the larger Jewish backdrop from which the term derives would be problematic. In simplest terms the word refers to some salvatory role: either soteriological, political or both.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

wouldn't followers of the dozens of other Messiahs be called Christians as well, then?

Interesting question. The word "Christ" is, as Pidar noted, the anglicisation of the Greek for Messiah (i.e. annointed one), so I suspect that most would argue it was Jesus specific because of the universality of Christianity.

Other Messiahs would not have Greek follows supposedly.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

In fact, Muslims are are also, strictly speaking, Christians because they acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah.

They most certainly do not.

The label Christ does refer to Messiah as it is simply the anglicization of the Greek for Messiah. To affirm Jesus is the Christ is thereby to affirm his Messiahship. The meaning/content of Messiah could be disputed, but arguing something at ignored the larger Jewish backdrop from which the term derives would be problematic. In simplest terms the word refers to some salvatory role: either soteriological, political or both.

It does not follow that he has to be devine or god just anointed by him.

you could make an arugment that the Catholic church and its Protestant off-shoots are not Christians at all, where the so-called "gnostic" followers of Christ are the originals. Their form of Christianity was so different than what is accepted as orthodoxy today, and theirs was much older too.

I have to agree with Zak on that. Heck how many books were left out of the bible?

So all of you maintain that one who follows the philoshopy of Christ is not a Christian unless they believe he is god?

[Pindar]

The label Christ does refer to Messiah as it is simply the anglicization of the Greek for Messiah. To affirm Jesus is the Christ is thereby to affirm his Messiahship. The meaning/content of Messiah could be disputed, but arguing something that ignored the larger Jewish backdrop from which the term derives would be problematic. In simplest terms the word refers to some salvatory role: either soteriological, political or both.

It does not follow that he has to be devine...

My statement makes no reference to divinity. In fact it explicitly points out Messiah could be understood politically. Understanding Jesus as Divine is an orthodox position within Christianity, but there are clear examples of Christian sects especially prior to the Fourth Century who did not hold that view.

So all of you maintain that one who follows the philoshopy of Christ is not a Christian unless they believe he is god?

I haven't argued that.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I haven't argued that.

Good because I hate to argue with you.

[Strike For The South]

A chiristian is someone who belives in Jesus and somone who strives to spread good will and the giid book

[AntiochusIII]

somone who strives to spread good will and the giid book

Pindar noted, and I agree, that conduct is separate of belief.

[Papewaio]

Wouldn't an alignment of belief and actions be a mark of integrity and hence a good Christian?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

They most certainly do not.

The call him Jusu The Christ, hense they believe he was the Messiah, but then so was David, and Cyrus the Great. The Latter was the Persian Great King.

So all of you maintain that one who follows the philoshopy of Christ is not a Christian unless they believe he is god?

I think I explicitly argued against that. Ever heard of Arianism?

[Incongruous]

Pindar noted, and I agree, that conduct is separate of belief.

How so?
You mean conduct in relation to Christ's teachings?
Belief in Christ and striving to live by his teachings are inseperable if one considers one Christian, without the attempt to condcut oneself as Christ taught, the belief is a lame duck. One is simply labeling, without commiting.
Though thats my 2 cents.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Except that you can follow his ethical teachings without believing the stories about him. So they can be seperated.

[Incongruous]

Oh you can still follow his teachings/philosophies. My dad is one such person, but he does not believe that Jesus was the Christ. In this way they can be seperated.
But if one states a belief in his divinity to call oneself a Christian one also strive to live by his teachings also. This is how one believes in him.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

This is how one believes in him.

This is how one is supposed to believe in him believes according to you. So tell me will a man who rarely sins and when he does is truly pentatent be less likely than someone who indeed believe that Jesus is all he cracked up to be but sins all the time and isnt really sorry for their sins? Besides you cannot help what you believe. This free choice stuff is nonsense. You either believe something or you dont until something or someone makes you believe different. I believe global warming is way over hyped and no one yet has led me to believe otherwise. Its not like I dont lookat the other side. Im like"How can anybody believe that?"

I think that the teachings of Christ are the best set of rules or philosophy that I have personally studied in depth. Jesus maybe God or he may not. It does not matter to me either way. I dont even care if he never existed. I try to follow the golden rule.

[Incongruous]

This is how one is supposed to believe in him believes according to you. So tell me will a man who rarely sins and when he does is truly pentatent be less likely than someone who indeed believe that Jesus is all he cracked up to be but sins all the time and isnt really sorry for their sins? Besides you cannot help what you believe. This free choice stuff is nonsense. You either believe something or you dont until something or someone makes you believe different. I believe global warming is way over hyped and no one yet has led me to believe otherwise. Its not like I dont lookat the other side. Im like"How can anybody believe that?"

I think that the teachings of Christ are the best set of rules or philosophy that I have personally studied in depth. Jesus maybe God or he may not. It does not matter to me either way. I dont even care if he never existed. I try to follow the golden rule.

Well ok, it does not matter that one has not lived according to Jesus teaching (sometime, due to exterior pressure this is impossible), but as long as one has strived to it, and is repentent about one's sins. That where it really lies for me, striving, is not the same as actually living like that. So, if you mess up due to you're choice of actions but you truly sorry, then you may not have lived as jesus said in that moment, but are now that you are truly repentent. Repentence is a keyston in how to believe in jesus.

This is of coarse just my beliefs.
I wasn't selling them as absolutes or anthing...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well ok, it does not matter that one has not lived according to Jesus teaching (sometime, due to exterior pressure this is impossible), but as long as one has strived to it, and is repentent about one's sins. That where it really lies for me, striving, is not the same as actually living like that. So, if you mess up due to you're choice of actions but you truly sorry, then you may not have lived as jesus said in that moment, but are now that you are truly repentent. Repentence is a keyston in how to believe in jesus.

So then what of the person who hardly sins and is sorry. Does it matter if he asks Jesus to forgive him? Is asking for gods forgiveness enough. Whoever or whatever that maybe? Does it matter?
Would such a person be a Christian in your book? What if one were to ask for Jesus to forgive him without believing he was god? Maybe he is god , but thats not the same as believing. I say the best we can do is try to follow the teachings of Jesus as we perceive them. Perception is everything. In my book if you are a follower of Christs teachings you are a christian.

[Navaros]

Correct me if I'm wrong,

LorenzoH, how do you figure that the devil "figures prominently" in Christian belief? He doesn't have many appearances in the Bible. If anything, the medieval church elevated the status of Satan quite a lot, for reasons that escape me.

This is indeed quite incorrect. Satan was there with the first humans, and by conning them into committing sin for the first time, they ruined the world and everything in it.

Satan didn't stop there. He's done the same thing ever since to every human that has came after. Including Jesus Christ.

He is indeed vitally important to know about and does in fact figure prominently in the Bible.

Seems awfully unfair though, don't you think? We are to live our lives in compliance with rules set down by someone/something we can't even see or perceive, to their satisfaction and standards on Judgment Day - surely a losing situation for most of us - except: if we 'hire' Jesus as our lawyer by 'believing' in him during life, he'll stick up for us that day, and we'll get a pass.

As I get older and more enlightened, this is indeed becoming my biggest problem of all with God and Jesus Christ. They could have made things so simple by asserting their authority and making everyone see it. If there was ever to be a credible argument about God or Jesus being fake, the best one would be that they do not assert their authority or at least make themselves tangibly known to humans across all time periods. If only for the purpose of making their existance, authority, and everything humans are supposed to do crystal clear.

[Incongruous]

So then what of the person who hardly sins and is sorry. Does it matter if he asks Jesus to forgive him? Is asking for gods forgiveness enough. Whoever or whatever that maybe? Does it matter?
Would such a person be a Christian in your book? What if one were to ask for Jesus to forgive him without believing he was god? Maybe he is god , but thats not the same as believing. I say the best we can do is try to follow the teachings of Jesus as we perceive them. Perception is everything. In my book if you are a follower of Christs teachings you are a christian.

Hmm, good point.
Is simply following his teachings enough, is that infact the way to worship him? Im no theologian
Asking for Gods forgiveness or Jesus' is the same in my book. So it's a non-issue. I don't really get what you're trying to say about seeking forgiveness from Jesus, even if one does not believe him to be divine.
However in my book, if you're a follower of Christ's teachings you are simply a pacafist socialist, and overall good guy, which is what he envisioned.

But Christians as we know them popularly today are different from that, they have more of a cult, more of a belief, in effect what they have is religion. That's what being a Christian could be?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Is simply following his teachings enough,

My whole thrust here has been does god need to be worshiped? Is he that vain?

. I don't really get what you're trying to say about seeking forgiveness from Jesus, even if one does not believe him to be divine.

Im using believe in the absolute sense meaning your sure he is god. Now if your not sure but you think there is a good chance so you pray to him just in case.

Im sure you would be amazed at how many people feel this way.

However in my book, if you're a follower of Christ's teachings you are simply a pacafist socialist, and overall good guy, which is what he envisioned.

But not a christian? Do I have to think Marx is divine to be a Marxist?

But Christians as we know them popularly today are different from that, they have more of a cult, more of a belief, in effect what they have is religion

Does that make them more of a christian than say Thomas Jefferson?

[Bijo]

Regarding what a Christian is; indeed: Pindar's statement is very simple and most likely true.

[Incongruous]

My whole thrust here has been does god need to be worshiped? Is he that vain?



Im using believe in the absolute sense meaning your sure he is god. Now if your not sure but you think there is a good chance so you pray to him just in case.

Im sure you would be amazed at how many people feel this way.



But not a christian? Do I have to think Marx is divine to be a Marxist?



Does that make them more of a christian than say Thomas Jefferson?

Worshiped?
Well no, he simply needs to be believed in, or maybe just percieved to be a possability.
I'm willing to bet that nearly everyone, if not everyone, when they're dying comes to some personal acceptance of something else. Even if it's in no certain terms.

About people whom pray just in case, If that is the case Im am willing to bet that at ssome time in their life that little inkling of Gods existence will become something more. Even if it's on their deathbed.

As to you're Marxist thing, well I didn't realise that all Marxists believed that he was divine, that's probabaly because Im so damned ignorant of him. But yes, I think that in order for one to be a Christsian one has to believe in his divinity.
As for Jefferson, again being Christian I believe is having a religion. But that doesn't make them better people than Jefferson, just means that they are part of a religion. But didn't he own slaves?
If he did then yes most modern Catholics/Christians are better people than him, and this would be recognised by Jesus.

Again I do not think that simply acting the way Jesus perscribed makes one a Christian, Being a Christian also requires a leap of Faith.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Worshiped?
Well no, he simply needs to be believed in, or maybe just percieved to be a possability.

Your as dodgy as me As I said perception is everything. Im sure most "Christians " wont agree with us on this. Notice how fast you backed out of your belief stance.

Again I do not think that simply acting the way Jesus perscribed makes one a Christian, Being a Christian also requires a leap of Faith.

If saying that all you need do is percieve there is a possibilty that he maybe god, I would not quite call that a leap More like a baby step.

As to you're Marxist thing, well I didn't realise that all Marxists believed that he was divine, that's probabaly because Im so damned ignorant of him

I almost choked on my food. No one I know of thinks hes divine Thats my point.

[Incongruous]

Your as dodgy as me As I said perception is everything. Im sure most "Christians " wont agree with us on this. Notice how fast you backed out of your belief stance.



If saying that all you need do is percieve there is a possibilty that he maybe god, I would not quite call that a leap More like a baby step.




I almost choked on my food. No one I know of thinks hes divine Thats my point.

Well I actually go to church every sunday, so I do more than believe. What I meant to say is, perhaps believing and praying in private is enough, or maybe just a recognition, is enough for God. But then again, were never going to be given the fricken answer.

Again, worship is, well a bit, you know. I start thinking of monkeys when people say worship.

But again actually going to a church every sunday or so is a leap of faith.

Gah i'm frying my man brain.

Sorry about the Marx thing, I didn't realise

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well I actually go to church every sunday, so I do more than believe.

Are you sure you even believe or do you like I think there is a possiblity he was or is god? The difference between the two means everything in this argument. Going to church if you dont believe doesnt mean much now does it. Now we are back to what does "believe" mean?

What I meant to say is, perhaps believing and praying in private is enough, or maybe just a recognition, is enough for God. But then again, were never going to be given the fricken answer.

From this statement alone you can see why I asked this question. You are quite convoluted in your statements. You take all the positions I mentioned and then go back to you have to believe. Then maybe not I would imagine you are quite normal in this respect however and that most people are not sure. They would like to believe at this stage of the game. If on your death bed the notion that you are not dying but going to a better place gives you comfort than I submit religion has done its job.

The only time I go to church is for funerals. The wake is so depressing . But going to the church afterward can be very uplifting. We had a thread here a bit back about what is spirituality. Well at one of these masses you can cut it with a knife. You really get the sense that this has been going on for a long long time and you feel your connection to something greater than man. I cant put a finger on it but somehow it lifts you up. Im certain it is a group psyche thing.

[Incongruous]

Gah!
Well I do ferevntly believe in God, there's no questionin in my mind as to his existence.

I need to take time off this thread, Gawain.

Maybe tomorrow I might have something normal to post

[doc_bean]

My whole thrust here has been does god need to be worshiped? Is he that vain?

The question asked a million times by critical believers, agnostics and atheists alike.

[Husar]

The question asked a million times by critical believers, agnostics and atheists alike.

I qualify as a critical veliever then I guess, because when the bible says in heaven everybody sings and worships God, well, it can sound quite...boring.
I think I'm currently in a vacuum concerning my beliefs, I do believe God exists, but I still have doubts about certain things. In the end I cannot decide for either, I just wish there was no decision to be made because I fear I'll never be able to decide, in church there are many intelligent people who say they have so many great experiences with God, well, I don't, not that I know of. Here, on the dark side( ) there are many intelligent people who say it's all bollocks anyway and bring some arguments I cannot refute, then again, science has it's holes as well. Doesn't mean I don't like science, I'm just aware that if science says God doesn't exist, they can't prove it either. I feel like I'm somewhere in between and cannot decide for either side. And before I feel like I'm talking too much about myself again, I'll stop here.

[Bijo]

Logic is the way. We must train it, practise it, rationality. There must be scientific and philosophical activity.

While I prefer the previous things I just uttered, I am in conflict due to the fact I do believe in a divine entity that is God. But the reason therefor is simple: it had been put into my mind from birth for many a year and is so deeply nested even cold hard rationality can't totally rid the idea or habit (though many times I seem to forget the idea while distracted).

Logically I say this: I see no proof He exists and I see no proof He doesn't exist, but it is plausible He doesn't. But plausibility is not sufficient especially in this case.


EDIT:
Well, it seems Husar kind of made my point already regarding who's right or wrong.

[Kralizec]

This is indeed quite incorrect. Satan was there with the first humans, and by conning them into committing sin for the first time, they ruined the world and everything in it.

Satan didn't stop there. He's done the same thing ever since to every human that has came after. Including Jesus Christ.

He is indeed vitally important to know about and does in fact figure prominently in the Bible.

If I recall correctly, satan is a Hebrew word that means "accuser" or "slanderer" and is used to refer to evil spirits, as the ancient Jews didn't believe in a Satan with a capital S, being the archnemesis of God.