Quote Originally Posted by econ21
Well then I think "the issue" is very confused.

Questions over social housing, foreign language and criminality (the three issues mentioned by the New Labour politicians) should not be discussed as if the problem was specific to Muslim immigrants. That might be how some natives perceive the problem, but it is not what any objective statistics will tell you.
No, I was merely trying to explain the problems with immigration in Europe to Antiochus, a lot of the 'problems' are due to perception and public opinion. You can't deny that.


In the UK, "issues" with Muslims in particular are probably best discussed without reference to immigration (and indeed housing, language and probably crime). In the UK, many (maybe half or more) Muslims are second and third generation so when it comes to worries about Islamic terrorism, it is quite unhelpful to describe them as immigrants.
Part of the problem is that the public still sees them as immigrants (and they see themselves as something else as 'pure' natives too.), and a lot of them aren't really integrated into 'common' society. That *is* a big issue with immigration now, the problems don't vanish a generation later. Giving the problems a different name isn't going to make them go away. They are integration issues.

I rather fear "Muslim" now plays a similar role in UK (and maybe Euro) immigration debates to what the word "black" played when Enoch Powell was stirring up the issue. It speaks to prejudices rather than facts.
That I won't deny, it doesn't solve the problem though.
As for facts, immigrants are generally poorer, even in the second or third generation and not as highly educated as 'locals', statistics do back this up (didn't find any on the second issue, but then I just need to look around to know that). Most immigrant Turks (later generation) still hang on to their 'second' nationality, even if it requires payment or military service, and about half the muslim marriage are to people from their 'country of origin' (a recent study has shown that). There *are* real issues, not just preconceptions.

Non-muslim immigrants seem to adapt faster and better, although that might be just the way it seems (there are less of them anyway, or they aren't here for economical reasons).