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  1. #1
    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Warming proposals(dodd proposes a tax)

    Im not in favor of more federal taxes, given the system we are in and the state we are at I thought this was at least an attempt to move the discussion forward here in the U.S.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Warming Proposals
    The presidential candidates and climate change


    Monday, May 14, 2007; Page A14

    ONE OF THE benefits of being in the second tier of presidential candidates is feeling freer to promote worthy ideas that might seem too risky to a front-runner. That may be the case with Sen. Christopher J. Dodd (D-Conn.), whose plan to tackle climate change involves a bold move for any politician: a new tax -- in this case, on carbon emissions. "You cannot be serious about acting on the urgent threat of global warming, about making us less captive to Middle East oil, or investing in renewable energy, unless you have a corporate carbon tax that eliminates the last incentive there is to pollute -- that it's cheaper," Mr. Dodd said in a speech last month.

    He would spend the $50 billion in annual revenue on research into renewable technologies. And he would couple the tax with legislation to mandate reductions in greenhouse gas emissions and raise automobile fuel economy standards to 50 miles per gallon by 2017. Mr. Dodd's tax proposal in particular goes far beyond the standard fare of the better-known Democratic candidates, who advocate a cap-and-trade approach to spur companies to reduce emissions combined with other incentives to increase production of renewable energy and to cut consumption.

    Under a cap-and-trade system, government would set a limit on the total amount of carbon dioxide that could be emitted. It would issue allowances to companies that emit CO{-2}, which would be able to buy and sell these rights. The theory is that the market would reward those able to reduce their emissions and make money from selling the rights. This has been a promising approach, and Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) in particular deserves credit for pushing it, especially within a party of global warming skeptics and 2008 opponents who have little to say on the subject.

    In theory, a well-designed cap-and-trade system -- one that does not simply hand out allowances but auctions some off, that applies across all sectors of the economy and that has some flexibility to keep energy prices stable -- could achieve the same ends as a carbon tax. In practice in Europe, cap and trade, at least in its early stages, has proved ineffective and susceptible to manipulation. Those who advocate this approach -- including not only Mr. McCain but Democrats Hillary Rodham Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards -- ought to explain why this cumbersome system is better than a straightforward tax.

    Conversely, Mr. Dodd and other backers of a carbon tax need to address its drawbacks, which are a matter of both political feasibility and conceptual design. What happens to particularly emissions-intensive sectors such as the coal industry, for instance, when an across-the-board carbon tax is imposed? Is a political system in which tax hikes are electoral poison capable of adopting a carbon tax, or is cap-and-trade more likely to win support? Would a tax end up being so riddled with loopholes as to be ineffective?

    Mr. Dodd would combine a tax with emission caps, which he says are necessary for certainty in emission reductions, but the details of how those two approaches would work together are fuzzy.

    Neither a U.S. cap-and-trade system nor a U.S. carbon tax will, in itself, deal with the daunting truth that the greatest growth in greenhouse emissions is in the developing world, particularly China and India. But a domestic policy that encourages the development of alternative technologies could reap a double benefit, generating U.S. sales of these innovative products overseas and helping address greenhouse gas emissions there as well.


    Warming proposals

    I'm intrested in what other U.S. voters think about this because I havent been sold on a corporate emission tax just yet, but in the back of my mind it seems to be a viable way to control emissions and draw new revenues to support new green technologies.

    Any other voters hear this from thier candidates?
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

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  2. #2
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Warming proposals(dodd proposes a tax)

    It sounds like a great idea. The problem, as I see it, is two-fold.

    One: There's no attempt to apply the Law of Unintended Consequences. Dodd's policy guys have assumed that they know exactly how the market will behave, and that's not always the case. Think rent control. It was supposed to make appartments in New York City cheap and readily available. Instead, it decimated the supply, because all the owners went condo. This tax may very well do what its intended to do. But it might not, and I see no analysis of how it might go wrong and what are some mitigating steps they can take to lessen the likelihood or the severity of unintended (and undesirable) consequences.

    Two: It's been my experience that new streams of government revenue (taxes, lotteries, etcetera) are always introduced for the best of intentions. They always intend to spend the money on some noble goal. But almost always, the money gets diverted, there winds up not being enough to fund the desirable program, so either the program gets discontinued (with the revenue vehicle left intact) or the program starts requiring additional funding, which means tax hikes in other areas.

    For a good example of #2, let's look at state lotteries to fund education. The state of Connecticut held out to being one of the last states in the area to have a lottery. We were told how backwards we were, how much money we were losing to neighboring states, etcetera. All these beautiful predictions of how much money would be created... So finally, around 1992, they instituted a lottery. And the state cut back on the amount of the general fund that went to education, because of all the money pouring in from the lottery. After a year or two, expensive educational programs were added, because the lottery made it possible. Well, 2 or 3 years down the line, interest in the lottery started to dry up. People still played, but nowhere near at the rate as when it was new. Now, education was facing severe shortfalls. Obviously, programs couldn't be cut, so the state had to start picking up a big part of the tab again. Only now, the bill was much larger. So they had to introduce NEW taxes beyond what they had in 1991. They still had the lottery too.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 06-12-2007 at 13:17.
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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Warming proposals(dodd proposes a tax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    One: There's no attempt to apply the Law of Unintended Consequences. Dodd's policy guys have assumed that they know exactly how the market will behave, and that's not always the case. Think rent control. It was supposed to make appartments in New York City cheap and readily available. Instead, it decimated the supply, because all the owners went condo. This tax may very well do what its intended to do. But it might not, and I see no analysis of how it might go wrong and what are some mitigating steps they can take to lessen the likelihood or the severity of unintended (and undesirable) consequences.
    Fair enough, but it does strike right at the perps of the problem, corporations dont like decreased profits due to taxes based on thier own output. As I understand the concept, its a progressive tax, the more you emit, the more it costs you. I concede it bares more thought and research, but on its surface it appears to address the issue in a balanced way (if its based on the amount you emit)


    Two: It's been my experience that new streams of government revenue (taxes, lotteries, etcetera) are always introduced for the best of intentions. They always intend to spend the money on some noble goal. But almost always, the money gets diverted, there winds up not being enough to fund the desirable program, so either the program gets discontinued (with the revenue vehicle left intact) or the program starts requiring additional funding, which means tax hikes in other areas.
    Well yes thats my problem as well and I suspect will be the larger issue, a liberal proposing a new tax is a red flag. That said, I dont think its a bad way to generate more revenue on the whole. Even if its spent somewhere else that it was intended for, it still taxes corporations with high emitions.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Warming proposals(dodd proposes a tax)

    Give the government more of my money . Are you insane? When there is no proof were even causing warming. Over my dead body. Thats what most americans will tell you. Even if they believe it they wont go for it. Were all bitching about the price of gas now. You want to see the economy go in the tank you just go ahead and do this. Raising the price of oil raises the price of everything.
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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Warming proposals(dodd proposes a tax)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Are you insane?
    Well technically yes, having spent years on acid and other wonderful narcotics I think I might be, however I am able to temper it with logic from time to time.



    When there is no proof were even causing warming.
    Carbon emissions cause global warming.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

    Sua Sponte

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Warming proposals(dodd proposes a tax)

    Come on, you know what Gawain's point was. Carbon emissions are a proven mechanism that CAN cause temperatures to rise. AFAIK, other than that report that got published last year that started with the conclusion statement, then was written to prove it(I'm still reviewing it and will have a rebuttal in detail later this week), there's no strong data on how much of the global rise in temperatures was due to man's activity.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Warming proposals(dodd proposes a tax)

    dodd proposes a tax
    Of course he does, he's a Democrat- that's their solution to everything.
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