Turks are much harder than Scots

[Kobal2fr]

I have to say I hate Turkey itself. Not in a cultural way, mind you - but the road networks are incredibly weird and annoying (Aaaah, Caesarea...wide open spaces, with only a useless little stump of road to cover it all...), and it takes ages to cross those mountains to link two cities... Tbilisi is about as far from Iconium as Caen is to Marseilles, but it takes like thrice the time to make the trip :/
Plus all those mountains make it hell to deal with brigands - one stack pops up 4 turns away from a city, and when you finally get there they're camping a mountaintop even sherpas wouldn't want to consider climbing...

Which is usually why my Turkish campaigns don't last long. Love their roster, love their stratmap specificities... Hate hate hate hate their lands.

[andrewt]

After finishing a Turks campaign, my advice is not to bother conquering Edessa or anything east of it. Come to think of it, might as well abandon Yerevan and Mosul or gift it to somebody else.

[Didz]

I'm seriously considering cutting my losses and abandoning this campaign as I'm not sure I can pull it round.

The current situation is as shown below.

The Mongols appeared somewhere to the north and it sounds as though they have trashed most of Russia. I heard that they have captured Kiev anyway. Then about 10 turns ago they appeared on my Northern border and captured Tbilisi and soon after that Yerevan, I only had small garrisons in those cities as they were in theory not under threat.

I was gearing up an army to deal with this threat when the Timurid's arrived near Baghdad. They ignored Baghdad but beseiged, captured and abandoned Mosul. They then marched south past Baghdad and I hoped they were going to bother the Eygptians.

I used the army I was planning to send agains the Mongols to recapture Mosul from the Rebels, but now the Timurids are back and this time they have captured and abandoned Baghdad.

At the same time I now have Mongol Armies besieging Mosul and Edessa, and I have lost Constantinople to the Hungarians. All I need is the Pope to declare a Crusade to Antioch to make it a full house.

The main problem I have now is that every florin I get is being spent of troops and because I have so many troops I don't get much money anyway. So, I get the impression I'm on a spiral to oblivion in this campiagn.

Perhaps my only hope is that the Mongols and Timurids clash and mutually destroy each other but thats a faint hope, and a lot less likely than a Crusade to Antioch. I might try starting a Jihad to Tbilisi just to see if I can get the Egyptians to send an army or two against he Mongols, but again its a faint hope.

Basically, I think I needed more time to develop my economy and begin to build up a decent level of military technology.

[Shahed]

Didz could you please post that savegame on www.sendspace.com ? I'd absolutely love to have a look at it. Looks like a real challenge. I could also perhaps help you with some advice after having that closer look. It's definetly not going to be easy though, and some creativity might have to be applied.

EDIT: Also I've never had this kind of challenge so it would be awesome for me to play it.

[Kobal2fr]

Wow, are you in deep Bantha poodoo :/
It's going to be hard for you to win against that in the long run, not because they have so many stacks per se, but because you haven't expanded West enough I'd say. Meaning the brunt of your income comes from the first cities the Timurids are going to blitz, and after they've fallen you'll only have your little kingdom of Timbuktu+Arguin to fuel your whole faction... Sounds like you're going to live in interesting times

(BTW, how did you even manage to get over there without having to blast through the uncharted regions of your map ? Sent a diplomat to buy the city ?)

EDIT : have you considered kindly giving them the directions to Egypt ?

[hisn00bness]

buying timnuktu from the moors is almost always a good idea .... consider the cost of sending an army large enough to guarantee capture of it all those years through the desert instead.

Think last time I bought it for an alliance offer and 12000 florins

[Didz]

On huge units it should also be easier to pin enemies on roads, that's why I find it hard to imagine a whole stack is unable to defeat against a Timurid attack, though I'd have used some spearmen against all those horses.

I'm using Huge units.

This seems to work better for spearmen and infantry but I've found horse archers useless in units of 80. I've tried using them en-mass several times but their skirmish function just doesn't work properly at that scale.

Firstly, if you put them in open order they simply don't even attempt to stay out of trouble, they just stand there and get overrun. If you accept the higher casulaties of being in close order they occassionally avoid infantry charges but cavalry either overrun them, or boxes them into a corner and massacres them.

And trying to get them to circle is just a nightmare, they either don't do it at all, or if they do, they manage somehow to circle their men into the enemy formation so they literally circle to their doom one by one against the enemies spears, bit like a queue at a slaughter house.

In small numbers I find horse archers great but an entire army of them is just a distaster from start to finish at this scale.

[Didz]

BTW, how did you even manage to get over there without having to blast through the uncharted regions of your map ? Sent a diplomat to buy the city ?

Nope I used the same approach I used in my Scottish Campaign (see the Scottish Blog in AAR).

I just started by sending merchants over, landing them on the coast and walking them across the desert. Then I sent an army over and captured it. Its a bit dodgy, if your at war with everyone, but I tend not to be so the risks are worth it.

Except for the Army transort I didn;t even bother using a fleet, just one boat weavering in and out of the enemies and trying to avoid pirates.

Didz could you please post that savegame on www.sendspace.com ? I'd absolutely love to have a look at it. Looks like a real challenge. I could also perhaps help you with some advice after having that closer look. It's definetly not going to be easy though, and some creativity might have to be applied.

EDIT: Also I've never had this kind of challenge so it would be awesome for me to play it.

Done
http://www.sendspace.com/file/xrvacb

Must admit the only reason I can think of for carrying on is that its such a challenge. I don't think I've ever found myself is quite such a bad position before. I think Mosul can hold out against the Mogols. I have bombards in there which have been sallying out of the gate and inflicting 20% casualties on the Mongols every turn, plus destroying their seige equipment. And I have Jannisary Infantry in the castle so it is pretty well defended if they do ever manage to assault. Edessa will be more of a challenge as its mostly garrisoned by militia spearmen. But on the whole I think I could cope with the Mongols, if they were on their own. The real problem are the Timurid's if they head inland to Damascus or worse still Antioch then I am in deep doodah's. If they head North or South I might survive, provided the Pope doesn't get excited, but pretty long odds on both counts.

[Shahed]

Great, thanks ! I'll have a look this evening.

EDIT: Had a quick look and have a quick suggestion: you can try to become a vassal of either the Timurids or the Mongols. This way you have only one of them to fight. The Mongols are easier to defeat, in fact you can kill 2-3 of their stacks on the 1st turn. You might be well off to attack Egypt too (lol). However the Timurids are stronger so they are the logical choice to all/vassal with but I don't know of they will accept. This is not a defeat. You become a vassal for now let them concentrate on someone else, you concentrate on kicking the other out of your lands and take all of Turkey, create a chokepoint at Yerevan & Constantinople. Then you redirect to the other guy, break your alliance or vassalage and attack.

Disclaimer: This is just one suggestion, it's not necessarily the best one or the only one, nor does it claim to be.

[hisn00bness]

If they head North or South I might survive

correct me if wrong here; but I don't think i've ever seen the Timurids go further south than Gaza...



On that note; hows egypt doing ? there might be time still for you to send an army (by ship to speed it up) south to capture Alexandria ;Caïro; and even Dongola followed by (if the timurids go north to antioch) securing the citadel of Gaza. If you can' t get Gaza nicosia can be an option (could make an excellent reconquista fortress)


This way you could use Egypt as a new economic base to push the timurids back; since they are sure to lose quite a bit of troops taking the north if you play your cards right in Aleppo/Antioch


failing that I don't see an easy way out

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm seriously considering cutting my losses and abandoning this campaign as I'm not sure I can pull it round.

The current situation is as shown below.

...

Basically, I think I needed more time to develop my economy and begin to build up a decent level of military technology.

I took one look at the photo and I have to say uh oh.

You're clearly able to field lots and lots of troops. But let's think tactically for a second... its almost impossible to stop 2 Timurid stacks attacking anything, even with a full garrison. I tend to see cities and fortresses as traps for your troops.

A) sallying is awful. You must destroy them all or you lose your city. You also lose all the advantages of having walls to begin with. Therefore sallying is a bad option.

B) They can overpower you with seiges. 2 stacks and you're done. Maybe you can trip them up once, but no castle is indestructible. They will get you.

C) If they were smart like a human, they would starve you out. Your choices? Salling which is awful, or starving to death. Seiges hurt.

Keep all your best troops in several stacks close to each other. Pull that same strength in numbers tactic the mongols and timurids pull on you. Dont wait inside your city like a sitting duck. They will take it eventually. When they do, they will either give it up again or they will become trapped inside.

Tactically, 3 standing armies together beat 3 garrisons far apart. Plain and simple.

I see a map like that and I see targets, not obstacles. BE the obstacle. BE the horde. BE the offender, not the defender.

If you are defending, do it to wear them down, not to save a city. Use cheap, disposable spears and arrows. point those spears at the gate and post arrows on the walls, and keep your captain away from the front line. Dont waste good generals inside cities adjacent to hostile armies. move them to friendly territory, or use them as commanders, even if they arent good ones. Bad is better than zero.

This is not intended to be foolproof advice or indisputable fact... just a different perspective on why you can clearly field massive armies, but cannot hold back the hordes. Suck those lazy garrisons out of the cities and mass them all together to form your own horde. Strike whilst the iron is HOT!

Your cause is not lost my friend. A change in tactics may be neccessary, but dont call it over until it's over.

Let's face it... you may be able to hold out for a little bit, but they will wear you down, city by city. Don't wait and take it from them, stand up, sally forth, mass your mightiest army, reinforce it with every troop and every florin spent, even tear down marketplaces and anything you can spare. Recruit, recruit, recruit. Field your mightiest force and outthink them on the battlefield. Outmaneuver their armies, use the terrain, use bridges, forts even. Build dummy forts and hope they are stupid enough to take them and get stuck inside, then crush the mice in your trap. But even the best general will need to retreat and reinforce. Dont let your generals die.

You might be able to take out a few of those stacks without reinforcements, but you will need to retreat and reinforce. Hack away at the dragon one sword swipe at a time.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If you go down, go down fighting. Exploit their weak formation... you can have 3 stacks attack the lead Timurid stack, and the battle would then be 3 to 2, your advantage. Once the battle is over, make a tight formation and withdraw if possible.

Anyhoo, I've spoken too much. Any other ideas, anyone?

[Didz]

@askthepizzaguy

I think that advice might hold for the Timurids, but I have had considerable success using the attrition approach against the Mongols.

In the above game I have just broken one Mongol seige through using repeated sallies by four bombards and Eddessa has just defeated a Mongol assault and trashed two whole Mongol stacks killing their king in the process.

I even came close to defeating two Timurid stacks at Mosul during an earlier siege and only really lost becuase my archers ran out of flaming arrows before they decided to bring in the reserve ram.

The problem with your strategy is that it pre-supposes that I have lots of large and powerful armies, but I don't. Most of those garrison's which you probably imagine to be stacked with Jannisaries are actually full of militia whose only purpose is to prevent the city revolting.

Horse Archers are hopeless in huge unit scale as they just stand around and get overrun and I don't have enough artillery to deal with Timurid elephants in the open.

What you are suggesting is what would probably work for a 'slash and burn' player who has destroyed everyone around him has a huge empire and highly advance military technology. I don't because my game concentrates on economic growth and so my priorities are to avoid conflict and make as many friends as possible. Thus I am poor and my army is weak, which actually reflects the biase in the game design, which rewards a playing style which according to Sun Tzu ought to lead to total ruin.

[Kobal2fr]

You focus on economic growth and thus you're poor ? Isn't that sort of a contradiction ?

[Askthepizzaguy]

@askthepizzaguy

I think that advice might hold for the Timurids, but I have had considerable success using the attrition approach against the Mongols.

In the above game I have just broken one Mongol seige through using repeated sallies by four bombards and Eddessa has just defeated a Mongol assault and trashed two whole Mongol stacks killing their king in the process.

I even came close to defeating two Timurid stacks at Mosul during an earlier siege and only really lost becuase my archers ran out of flaming arrows before they decided to bring in the reserve ram.

The problem with your strategy is that it pre-supposes that I have lots of large and powerful armies, but I don't. Most of those garrison's which you probably imagine to be stacked with Jannisaries are actually full of militia whose only purpose is to prevent the city revolting.

about the Mongols: Go with what works my friend. If you can manage to hold them off with your garrison forces alone, then more power to you, and you can focus on this invading Timurid army.

about the Timurids: You know the wait and see approach definitley won't cut it with these guys. It is unfortunate that you need those garrisons in your cities. If you could get them on the field somehow, you'd have a prayer...

I've found that numbers work well against the AI. Could be all town militia an a couple generals thrown in, if you surround from both sides, let the AI controlled army attack the horde, and then attack simultaneously, the sheer wieght of numbers and being surrounded can take out most of them. The problem is with their dread rating... you'd need high dread or chivalry yourself and I doubt that you do if you've adopted a more or less pacifist approach.

If those stacks in your cities are garrisons that cannot be moved into a standing army, then yes, I think this is an example of a failed strategy. With unmoveable garrisons that big, I doubt you could afford a huge standing army. And yes, the game plan seems to have backfired in that case. The only way you can field a massive army against the Timurids is if you have many cities making a profit, or lots and lots of low garrisoned castles. The profit per turn of your empire (before your standing army cost) should nearly equal your standing army cost. But if your garrison cost is too high and you dont have enough cities where the public order is good enough to make a profit, then you largely become a sitting duck. Of course, you already know this and have come to this conclusion.

Any other empire besides the Turks have time to sit and grow. The Turks really don't... they must create the Ottoman empire and single-handedly repel both invasions and the crusades or they will die. The economy isnt the way to go, I suppose. It must be by the sword, or they risk an untimely death.