Valor and routing

[History Geek]

Hello people of deep and immidiate knowledge

Just a quick question: Sometimes I prefer to let my units rout just before they get in serious trouble, instead of just pulling out. This is to prevent them from taking unnessesary losses or being 'stuck' in a melee they cannot win.

Does this cause a loss of valor?

/HG

[macsen rufus]

It doesn't affect the valour, but if you're not carfeul you might end up with "good runner" or "not so bold" vices which will decrease morale and increase the likelihood of routing in the future, especially where the unit in question is a general (his morale V&Vs affect the whole army).

It's better to withdraw (ctrl-W) rather than rout, though they will be a bit slower about it, and may just end up routing anyway

[History Geek]

Can commanders that isn't designated general in the specific battle get the vice "good runner"? I thought it only affected the general?

/HG

[macsen rufus]

It can affect any unit that runs off the battlefield screaming like a cissy, although it seems more likely to hit a general that does it. If you check a stack that has just been routed you will often find a number of units in it have earned the "good runner" trait. I think the main reason you see more of it on generals is that the general is more likely to escape, but with other units, the unit leader seems to have no more chance of escaping capture than other men in the unit, and if the unit leader is captured his replacement will not necessarily get the vice even though the unit routed.

[Agent Miles]

If your unit is getting smashed to the point of routing, it is in serious trouble. To answer your question, yes I have had units perform poorly in combat and lose valour, although this is rare. Analyze your enemies’ forces and know which unit match-ups are to your advantage. Yas Terazawa’s unit comparison tool has helped me a lot. Having a unit hold the line while other units maneuver is a necessary evil. Asking the impossible of a unit isn’t.

[Peasant Phill]

The valour of a unit is the mean valour of all the men in that unit. Valour is, however, calculated per man. So, your units lost valour because the relative high valour men in those units got killed, thus lowering the mean valour.

[Digital]

I let my troops, except general unit, rout when they are in a hopeless battle. If you pulled out the usual way and withdraw, you'll suffer more casualties. Try it on completely exhausted soldiers(zero bar) who are walking away and they will actually manage to run for the duration of the routing. A good way for completely exhausted soldiers to escape enemies closing in on them and who are fresher than them.

[General Dazza]

I usually withdraw as well for above reasons. Am I right in saying that if all your troops rout at the same time it ends the battle, giving you get the auto calc of losses? I hate it when this happens because in my experience, your losses are much worse than if you withdraw your troops.

I've had it happen where I had 3 HA units near the edge of the map looking like they could withdraw without loss, only for one to rout and in turn spook the other 2 who also rout causing massive losses. It was damn annoying.

[History Geek]

I just lost a battle yesterday, and though I would have loved to say it was in the interest of duing research for the forum, I was actually overrun in the most brutal way.

However, I noticed that vices were only given to commanders that held stars at the beginning of the battle. I had 4, one died - luckily it was only the crown prince - two were captured and gained the vice 'captured' and the last one escaped the scene and gained 'good runner'. No other commander gained vices.

So is this a random distributing of vices, or a general rule?

/HG

[Ironside]

However, I noticed that vices were only given to commanders that held stars at the beginning of the battle. I had 4, one died - luckily it was only the crown prince - two were captured and gained the vice 'captured' and the last one escaped the scene and gained 'good runner'. No other commander gained vices.

So is this a random distributing of vices, or a general rule?

/HG

A general without V&V and/or stars (and titles?) isn't a general, but "captain" and isn't effected by v&v in the same way. He has to lead the stack or being the default general by some other way to start gaining v&v.

[Caerfanan]

Hello people of deep and immidiate knowledge

Just a quick question: Sometimes I prefer to let my units rout just before they get in serious trouble, instead of just pulling out. This is to prevent them from taking unnessesary losses or being 'stuck' in a melee they cannot win.

Does this cause a loss of valor?

/HG

Uuuh. I'll have an answer and a question: the answer is that only with getting a vice your unit leader will disminish the valour of his men. I'm backing Peasant Phil: the valour displayed is a per man basis. so if your unit is fighting it's valour usually grows when it loses men (experience gotten + low valour men dying first), however it can go down if your unit is mopped up by the enemy while routing.

But how do you make your unit "rout", is there any specific order for that?

[Caerfanan]

A general without V&V and/or stars (and titles?) isn't a general, but "captain" and isn't effected by v&v in the same way. He has to lead the stack or being the default general by some other way to start gaining v&v.

Oh, a unit leader can gain V&V only if he's general?
Could it be varying according to the vice or virtue? I'm thinking of the "captured" vice. I'm not sure, but I think that several unit leaders can have this (lower morale, higher valour)

[History Geek]

But how do you make your unit "rout", is there any specific order for that?

ctrl-o (not zero) makes your men run in panic away from the nearest foe. Use with caution...

And thanks Ironside for the captain/general destinction - it confirms my experience with V&V.

I think were a little of topic here though...

/HG

[Martok]

With the exception of the "Captured" trait, I've always only seen the commanding general bestowed with any battle-related vices/virtues. I've yet to see unit leaders be penalized with the "Good Runner" vice just because their regiment routed. Are you sure this is happening to guys besides just your main general?

But how do you make your unit "rout", is there any specific order for that?

Doh! Never mind, HistoryGeek is right.

[History Geek]

I'm afraid that the 'r' key rallies your men, whereas ctrl-o routs them...

/HG

[Great Est.]

How do you withdraw dudes without routing? I usually march them to the edge of the map then click rout. Is there a withdraw command? Does intentional routing cause carry a valor hit?
holler

[scowie]

How do you withdraw dudes without routing?

Right-click on the unit and select withdraw from the menu. There is a key combination to do it too, ctrl+w I think it was.

[Ironside]

Oh, a unit leader can gain V&V only if he's general?
Could it be varying according to the vice or virtue? I'm thinking of the "captured" vice. I'm not sure, but I think that several unit leaders can have this (lower morale, higher valour)

Fist, captured line gives increased morale and lower command (a virtue imo).

The v&v is a bit complicated as generally only stack leaders get it. But some can be given to all generals in a stack (so you can have 15 generals and one commanding general in a stack).

Notice that the stack leader will get the commanding general v&v even if he's not commanding (you can do this is the battle deployment window).

To be a general you'll have to have a v&v or command stars and a clear sign of that they're generals are that they won't merge with other units, but will leave the general alone in a unit. So you can have an army consisting of 16 men in 16 units if you want.

[Musket]

If i am getting my butt kicked on Medieval, what i do is firstly, try and engage the enemy as far from the army starting point as possible. Secondly i try and flank my enemy, possibly go around the back and hit them from behind.

If all else fails and my army begins taking a heavy loss, i withdraw my army to a safe distance, rally the troops and make a final stand.

[Peasant Phill]

If i am getting my butt kicked on Medieval, what i do is firstly, try and engage the enemy as far from the army starting point as possible. Secondly i try and flank my enemy, possibly go around the back and hit them from behind.

If all else fails and my army begins taking a heavy loss, i withdraw my army to a safe distance, rally the troops and make a final stand.

You aren't giving a lot of info. Try to read Frogbeastegg's strategy guide in the guide threads first, it'll provide you with the basics you need to know before you fight your battles.

Engaging the enemy from afar: With what units? Do you get your units back? what's the casaulty/kill ratio? Does this screw up the enemy's formation?

Flanking the enemy: With what units? At what moment do they charge? Can the enemy react? Does manoeuvering them in place screw up the enemy's formation?

Withdrawing your troops: Weren't you placed at the best possible terrain before the actual engagement started? Do you withdraw one-by-one or in one move? Do you rout, withdraw or march your troops? Do you leave sacrificial units to slow down the enemy? Is your last stand on better terrain? When do you start this manoeuvre?

We can help if you answer these questions