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While everybody's been getting down and dirty in Iraq and Afganistan Gaza seems to have had a little Civil War of it's own.
This one may be won already and peace in the Middle East is one step further away.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1929392.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1930829.ece
Note: For anyone who wants to poo poo the Times, fine, but that's where I read it an hour ago so that's what I'm posting.
This one may be won already and peace in the Middle East is one step further away.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1929392.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1930829.ece
Note: For anyone who wants to poo poo the Times, fine, but that's where I read it an hour ago so that's what I'm posting.
I'm not sure it was our ball to ignore.
Whilst I have my reservations about the real reasons that Israel pulled out of Gaza, the simple truth is that the Palestinians have proven themselves incapable of running an independent enclave, just as they have proven themselves insufficient to step up to the responsibilities attendant on running the interim Palestinian Authority.
I know there are huge mitigating factors with the occupation, poverty and economic impacts, but nonetheless, each time they have the opportunity to prove to the powers that can affect their future that they can be a responsible partner in a two-state solution, they fail miserably.
Ordinary Palestinians have a miserable life, yet it is not going to be improved by letting the madmen fight like feral dogs. Until they give their blood to stop the lunatics running the asylum, the lunatics will cause their blood to be eternally spilt for nothing.
Whilst I have my reservations about the real reasons that Israel pulled out of Gaza, the simple truth is that the Palestinians have proven themselves incapable of running an independent enclave, just as they have proven themselves insufficient to step up to the responsibilities attendant on running the interim Palestinian Authority.
I know there are huge mitigating factors with the occupation, poverty and economic impacts, but nonetheless, each time they have the opportunity to prove to the powers that can affect their future that they can be a responsible partner in a two-state solution, they fail miserably.
Ordinary Palestinians have a miserable life, yet it is not going to be improved by letting the madmen fight like feral dogs. Until they give their blood to stop the lunatics running the asylum, the lunatics will cause their blood to be eternally spilt for nothing.
It's all Israel's fault. I have no idea how but I'm certain it must be. Perhaps you wiser gents can explain to me how. [/sarcasm]
Ouch
I'd be surprised if even an Israeli invasion could unite Hamas and Fatah
They've had their chance, imo - now it's up to us to clean up their mess...again.
I'd be surprised if even an Israeli invasion could unite Hamas and Fatah
They've had their chance, imo - now it's up to us to clean up their mess...again.
Originally Posted by sapi:
They've had their chance, imo - now it's up to us to clean up their mess...again.
Who Sapi?They've had their chance, imo - now it's up to us to clean up their mess...again.
Anyone and everyone 
Got to love those blanket statements
Seriously though, an Arab-led peacekeeping force would be perfect, but that's never going to happen. The best we can hope for is probably strong western pressure, condemnation and all that meaningless nonsense.
If things weren't so bad in Israel I'd almost wonder if a re-occupation wouldn't be better off for everyone - what they've got now definitely isn't working; the danger is the damage may already have been done...
Got to love those blanket statements
Seriously though, an Arab-led peacekeeping force would be perfect, but that's never going to happen. The best we can hope for is probably strong western pressure, condemnation and all that meaningless nonsense.
If things weren't so bad in Israel I'd almost wonder if a re-occupation wouldn't be better off for everyone - what they've got now definitely isn't working; the danger is the damage may already have been done...
Originally Posted by sapi:
Anyone and everyone
Got to love those blanket statements
Seriously though, an Arab-led peacekeeping force would be perfect, but that's never going to happen. The best we can hope for is probably strong western pressure, condemnation and all that meaningless nonsense.
If things weren't so bad in Israel I'd almost wonder if a re-occupation wouldn't be better off for everyone - what they've got now definitely isn't working; the danger is the damage may already have been done...
It seems to me the economic sanctions have killed the palestinians, perhaps to the point of no return, I dont know. As a U.S. citizen i want no more to do with the middle east other then purchasing oil. that said I think its high time the U.S. pressued israel to ease thier economic grip by releases the tax collections, and opening up the palestinians ability to trade.Anyone and everyone
Got to love those blanket statements
Seriously though, an Arab-led peacekeeping force would be perfect, but that's never going to happen. The best we can hope for is probably strong western pressure, condemnation and all that meaningless nonsense.
If things weren't so bad in Israel I'd almost wonder if a re-occupation wouldn't be better off for everyone - what they've got now definitely isn't working; the danger is the damage may already have been done...
Originally Posted by :
Well it looks like we took our eye off this ball.
How is it taking the eye off the ball ?Well it looks like we took our eye off this ball.
This is entirely the intended result .
Originally Posted by sapi:
an Arab-led peacekeeping force
Good one!!! That would be like going to a Taliban barber to get your beard trimed with a very large knife.an Arab-led peacekeeping force
I am not sure anyone took their eye off the ball - the US have apparently been arming Fatah (I noticed the Fatah kidnappers in the West Bank included some with shiney new looking M16s). And Israel/EU etc have been putting restrictions and sanctions on the Hamas government. But the elections showed that Hamas had more popular support and more importantly the current fighting shows they have more determined fighters. The New York Times quotes one bewildered Palestinian Authority soldier saying it was 70,000 PA soldiers vs 10,000 Hamas fighters and Hamas won. The PA soldiers just disappeared, suffering from lack of morale and poor organisation/leadership.
At one level, as someone who wants peace in the Middle East, I am appalled by the ongoing conflict and the idea of the more ideological (Islamist) and anti-Israel Hamas becoming entrenched in power.
But at another level, that seems to be the logic of some of these conflicts. People opt for the hard-liners, perhaps in part because they believe they will prove the tougher negotiators. Perhaps because the hard-liners can always outflank the moderates and win over the hot-headed young men who will do the fighting. I am thinking here in part about Northern Ireland, where the more hardline nationalist (Sinn Fein) and unionist (Democratic Unionists) have gradually elbowed out the moderates from power.
If the Palestinians want Hamas, then perhaps the world must deal with Hamas. Trying to shore up Fatah does not seem to have worked. And Fatah itself does not seem to be a particularly edifying organisation (corrupt and incompetent; and including elements that are no less keen on terrorism than Hamas). At least with Hamas, you may be dealing with an entity that is more unified and in control.
But it is an awful mess, I agree.
At one level, as someone who wants peace in the Middle East, I am appalled by the ongoing conflict and the idea of the more ideological (Islamist) and anti-Israel Hamas becoming entrenched in power.
But at another level, that seems to be the logic of some of these conflicts. People opt for the hard-liners, perhaps in part because they believe they will prove the tougher negotiators. Perhaps because the hard-liners can always outflank the moderates and win over the hot-headed young men who will do the fighting. I am thinking here in part about Northern Ireland, where the more hardline nationalist (Sinn Fein) and unionist (Democratic Unionists) have gradually elbowed out the moderates from power.
If the Palestinians want Hamas, then perhaps the world must deal with Hamas. Trying to shore up Fatah does not seem to have worked. And Fatah itself does not seem to be a particularly edifying organisation (corrupt and incompetent; and including elements that are no less keen on terrorism than Hamas). At least with Hamas, you may be dealing with an entity that is more unified and in control.
But it is an awful mess, I agree.
Originally Posted by econ21:
I am not sure anyone took their eye off the ball - the US have apparently been arming Fatah (I noticed the Fatah kidnappers in the West Bank included some with shiney new looking M16s).
To me they look like shiny new M4 SOPMODs or at least regular M4sI am not sure anyone took their eye off the ball - the US have apparently been arming Fatah (I noticed the Fatah kidnappers in the West Bank included some with shiney new looking M16s).
On the radio they said this morning that there is talk about peacekeepers being sent there by the UN or so.
Makes me wonder how they will interprete all those peacekeepers around Israel. While we may have only good intentions, those extremists might go all "oh noez, another group of infidel invaders in our country!!!1111"
Originally Posted by sapi:
Ouch
I'd be surprised if even an Israeli invasion could unite Hamas and Fatah
They've had their chance, imo - now it's up to us to clean up their mess...again.
Yes, they have had their chance, it's in no way linked to the goings on instigated by International cock-ups led by a a bunch of human cockups...Ouch
I'd be surprised if even an Israeli invasion could unite Hamas and Fatah
They've had their chance, imo - now it's up to us to clean up their mess...again.
If this is the response of European and other Western leaders, Im leaving.
The US should be celerbrating, it has hsown that through, sneaky underhand tactics it can cripple it's enemies countries and kill off them and their people by instigating civil war.
Ceaser and indeed Clive would be proud.
Jesus probably wouldn;t be, nor any other decent human being in the world but those two would.
Originally Posted by :
The US should be celerbrating, it has hsown that through, sneaky underhand tactics it can cripple it's enemies countries and kill off them and their people by instigating civil war.
I told you we were clever and that we would be blamed even for their inhumanity toward eachother. These were always a peace loving people , who never had any blood feuds or were in any way violent until the evil US sent all the Jews over to Israel to start trouble in the hope that the evil christians would get their way by having the temple of David re erected so that it would facilitate the second coming of Christ .The US should be celerbrating, it has hsown that through, sneaky underhand tactics it can cripple it's enemies countries and kill off them and their people by instigating civil war.
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny:
I told you we were clever and that we would be blamed even for their inhumanity toward eachother. These were always a peace loving people , who never had any blood feuds or were in any way violent until the evil US sent all the Jews over to Israel to start trouble in the hope that the evil christians would get their way by having the temple of David re erected so that it would facilitate the second coming of Christ .
Well, no one has ever called them peace loving Gawain.I told you we were clever and that we would be blamed even for their inhumanity toward eachother. These were always a peace loving people , who never had any blood feuds or were in any way violent until the evil US sent all the Jews over to Israel to start trouble in the hope that the evil christians would get their way by having the temple of David re erected so that it would facilitate the second coming of Christ .
I think some people however just want to keep the field fair in this discussion, by not turning a blind eye or re-painting what the west has done.
Yeah we're having crazy faction wars now. Fatah al-Islam vs. Hamas etc. Anyone see the mobs charging gunmen who were fighting in the streets? It was some insane and brave thing to do.
yeah I saw one unarmed civi slap down this gunnman and chase him off - ballsy - damn ballsy
just shows the people there are fed up with dying so others can play power games
just shows the people there are fed up with dying so others can play power games
Very, very sad what happens in this part of the world. I don't really understand the situation at all, its not that I haven't studied the facts, I have, over and over and over... but none of it adds up. I've always looked at Fatah, more or less the same as Hamas, and Israel more or less the same as both of those groups. What bothers me the most is not that these guys are all beating the hell out of each other for what...a little insignificant chunk of Desert? They can fight over it until the Cows come home for all I care, its the Innocents that always gets to me. Justice is a word that has all but been expelled from their vocabulary I think.
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