thraikioi peltastai kill off hypaspistai? and other questions...

[NeoSpartan]

Next time have your Hypaspistai (sp) in HOLD. Hoplites preform MUCH better in "Hold", the difference is like night and day.

And another thing thraikioi peltastai are NOT levy troops, they are NOT average troops, they are They are "...well trained and among the fiercest and most feared warriors in the entire world...". And that one handed falx they use is a REALLY powerful weapon. Just ask the Romans in the Dacian Wars.

So yes, they SHOULD and WILL kick a**.

[Pharnakes]

Rhomphia. And yes I love my Thraikoi peltastai. Best shock troops in the game. Or certinately are on a value for money basis.


@tk-421, well, ok maybe not zero casualties, but I still think that they take to many casualties.

[abou]

@tk-421, well, ok maybe not zero casualties, but I still think that they take to many casualties.

Well, that's the thing, Pharnakes. A unit that is twice the size of an elite unit can basically swarm and overwhelm them. A unit of Prodromoi would work much better for the task.

It's funny because one of my friends told me about a book or article or something where a man basically reasoned out how many 9 year-olds he could take on before loosing the fight. I think it was somewhere around twelve, because after the first three little kids had gone down in a straight one-on-one the rest would start to think tactically. The tactic would be to just swarm all at once, which is just how Akontistai would fight Hypaspistai.

Personally, I think I could take out at least fifteen 9 year-olds. I might have to try this experiment myself.

[Watchman]

You'd think that after the first few had bitten the dust the rest would suddenly start remembering all kinds of things they had to attend to elsewhere though... Psychology is important you know.

Seriously, what amount to knife-wielding untrained levies shouldn't really have a prayer against very well-armed, highly trained elite heavies in hand-to-hand in normal circumstances. After the Hypas had mown down the first few foolhardy glory merchants, what are the odds any of the remaining levy skirmishers had any stomach for meeting the same end - or any more realistic chance to get meaningful damage past the Hypas' heavy body armour, large shield and massive superiority in skill and confidence, especially when the latter are fighting as a proper cohesive close-order unit ?

Just for the perspective, I suggest you look at how things went between Conquistador swordsmen and Aztec soldiers - where there was by far less disparity in respective fighting qualities.

[abou]

Yeah, you do have a point. If I wasn't wearing anything besides rags and the guy in front of me was wearing really shiny armor I would be apprehensive. We are kind of stuck with the morale system though. Any less would mean that lighter units would be worthless in a melee when there is at least some use to be had. Of course, we can't really plan around stuff like the traits of generals because not every army will have one.

There is a sense of damned if you do, but damned if you don't. We don't have a lot of room in morale stats for tinkering with numbers so we're stuck. I do agree with you for the most part, but if it comes down to being caught in a melee, running, and getting stabbed in the back or fighting for the chance to live... well, swarming doesn't sound like such a bad idea.

[Watchman]

Fair enough, just pointing out that IRL virtually zero casualties for the heavies would be perfectly credible, even should the skirmishers try to stand and fight. But the logic of the game places its limitations.

[NeoSpartan]

May I remind you fellas that Hernan Cortez had a lot of ALLIED indian tribes that hated the Aztecs.

Also in the battle in which Francisco Pizarro and his conquistadors captured the Inca emperor and killed many Incas. The Incas were unarmed and many gave thier lives just trying block the way to the emperor, since they were ambushed inside a small plaza.

Now... should elite units be all uber and take 0 casualties when fighting levies.... It will depend on the terrain they are fighting in, and the formation. Other than that, they are not god-units, deployed wrongly they will die easely.
Ex: using heavy infantry Vs falx/axe/hammer/etc units. The heavy infantry WILL take major casualties.
Ex: if heavy infantry is hit by slingers, they will take major casualties too.
Ex: allowing heavy infantry to be outflacked or enveloped, they will most likely die.
Ex: heavy infantry fighting uphill, they will take major casualties too.

Elite units are great to have. BUT just because they have all that armor, or battle expirience, doesn't mean that they will take few casualties. Deploy them wrongly and they will rout, the only difference is that they will FIGHT LONGER than any other levy, or medium unit in that same situation.

keep things in perspective fellas.. This ain't 9y.o kids fighting Bruce Lee.

[Pharnakes]

Yeah, you do have a point. If I wasn't wearing anything besides rags and the guy in front of me was wearing really shiny armor I would be apprehensive. We are kind of stuck with the morale system though. Any less would mean that lighter units would be worthless in a melee when there is at least some use to be had. Of course, we can't really plan around stuff like the traits of generals because not every army will have one.

There is a sense of damned if you do, but damned if you don't. We don't have a lot of room in morale stats for tinkering with numbers so we're stuck. I do agree with you for the most part, but if it comes down to being caught in a melee, running, and getting stabbed in the back or fighting for the chance to live... well, swarming doesn't sound like such a bad idea.

Well, this is just my opinon but think that the attack and defensive skill of all untis should be increased, elites obviously more than others, so you end up with a situation where leves will hold agianst elites for a while (without routing) they just won't kill anyone. I mean imagine akontistai with that little (probably poor quality knife) against hypaspistai, even if they stabed a hypaspiste, the knife would be more likely to break then penentrate, even assuming the hypaspiste made no effort to defend himself or couter attack.

[LorDBulA]

Well, this is just my opinon but think that the attack and defensive skill of all untis should be increased, elites obviously more than others, so you end up with a situation where leves will hold agianst elites for a while (without routing) they just won't kill anyone. I mean imagine akontistai with that little (probably poor quality knife) against hypaspistai, even if they stabed a hypaspiste, the knife would be more likely to break then penentrate, even assuming the hypaspiste made no effort to defend himself or couter attack.

But then we get in different trouble. Single unit of Elites surrounded by hundreds of light infantry guys wont go down.
And in real life they would be doomed. Ofcource they would inflict heavy casualties on light inf but they would go down eventually.

[NeoSpartan]

Well, this is just my opinon but think that the attack and defensive skill of all untis should be increased, elites obviously more than others, so you end up with a situation where leves will hold agianst elites for a while (without routing) they just won't kill anyone. I mean imagine akontistai with that little (probably poor quality knife) against hypaspistai, even if they stabed a hypaspiste, the knife would be more likely to break then penentrate, even assuming the hypaspiste made no effort to defend himself or couter attack.

Dude, really.... It doesn't workout that way, a man with a knife can HUG the hypaspiste and stab him in the neck, thighs, under the arm, any open areas. Why do you think Romans also carried a very small dagger??? Hand to hand fighting is NASTY man, NASTY.

Moral is bigger issue here, if the hypaspiste fight akontistai that don't want to fight. Then yes the akontistai will break after loosing a few man... BUT if the akontistai HATE thier enemies and are willing to die while trying to kill a hypaspiste... then... thats another story.


in my opinion... the moral of levys and other units shouldn't be affected so much by the death of a general in battle. I hate, seeing 1/2 of the enemy flee because I just killed thier general.

[NeoSpartan]

WOW!!!! $200 bucks for that bood Man... I'll see if I can find it in the libraries near by.

On the subject of elites vs. levys....
I have one question.... Do any of you remember RTW????? U guys remember when whole units dropped like flies just after an initial clash???? IF the stats of elites are increased we will get closer to that. And one of the good things about this mod is that units actually fight for a little bit before dieing.

Also, one of the reasons why levys and other seemingly weaker units hold out long is because sometimes the AI puts them in HOLD. Which makes a battle last longer and it ties up your good units in one place.

One thing I would like to point out. I am NOT saying that Akontistae will win the battle. I am saying that Akontistai will cause more than 3 or 4 casualties to hypaspistai. And another thing, as I stated before, terrain and formation will be a major factor in deciding how many casualties will occur. And moral too (although this is hard to duplicate in the game, having a good general which keeps the akontistai from fleeing sort of duplicates this to an extent).

[Pharnakes]

I am not proprosing a return to vanila battle system, just and increase in the defensive stats of elites.

[NeoSpartan]

I am not proprosing a return to vanila battle system, just and increase in the defensive stats of elites.

oh ok... but...
1. How much of an increase are we talking about???
2. How will that translate into the game???