The Hyborian Age: Total War

[Taranaich]

They stole the Heart of Ahriman and well... you know what tends to happen to people who own that gemstone.

Heh heh.

I'm aware of the involvement of pastiches on sorcerous Hyperborea - however, such idea fits the cold kingdom so perfectly that I've learned to accept it. I'm quite a purist when it comes to the Hyborian Age otherwise.

A lot of people have, it's very pervasive. This is why I offer the choice for an involved player to turn Hyperborea into the Evil Empire of the pastiches: since Howard had sorcerers puppeteering the kings of normally non-sorcerous countries (Tsotha-Lanti the power behind Koth, Yara in Zamora, Xaltotun in Nemedia) I thought that the ability of the player to start things rolling in that direction would be pretty true to Howard. If the wizards were successful in their goals, then they could've set up nasty sorcerous empires like the pastiche Hyperboreans.

Hmmm, how about replacing Set with Tsathoggua? Sounds pretty exotic, I'm sure - but Howards Thurian and Hyborian Ages take arguably place in the world of Cthulhu Mythos, following the Hyperborean Age of Clark Ashton Smith. The Frog God is even mentioned by Howard as being worshipped far south. Hyperborea is located in the right place for Voorish ruins to be uncovered, perhaps that way entering in to an age of dark sorcery? Heh, just a suggestion that came to mind. I run Conan RPG myself and tend to mix Mythos in to it.

That was indeed an idea I had, that Howard's Hyperborea had a few elements of Smith's. Although it's quite controvertial among Howard (and Lovecraft and Smith) enthusiasts, I personally do subscribe to the shared mythos of the three writers being intentional. As such, I might include some Smithian elements in my mod, including Tsathoggua, who Howard seemed to be a big fan of.

You will include Kosala as a faction? Surprising, I thought them to be rather insignificant in their own right. Have you thought about including sorcery in the form of uber-assassins and spies for some factions?

Although it seems that Kosala isn't a big player, a study through the references seems to indicate Kosala being a pretty big cheese in the sorcerous department. Most of the choices I made for factions are based on Dale Rippke's essay The Blue East. Kosala's disposition for pretty heavy-hitting magic (artificial lighting, fruit that feeds on air, sceptres that fling fireballs) as well as Baal-Pteor's propensity for both physical brutality and mesmerism makes me think Kosala is pretty worth of inclusion.

Sorcery on the campaign map will include some nasties, where Stygia, Kosala et al use extremely powerful demons as their assassins and spies. The dreaded Inquisitors will become particularly nasty demons.

What comes to Picts and Cimmerians, having them portrayed as an united nation sounds a bit strange. How about having the player first take control of one tribe being tasked to subjugate other (rebel) tribes, after which a confederation of some sort would be formed?

That's the plan. Currently the Cimmerians own a single province, and they have to either ally with or subjugate other tribes to make Cimmeria one nation. The Picts start off with an alliance of four tribes: the Wolves, Hawks, Wildcats, and Turtles were tentatively allies as of Wolves Beyond the Border, and I'm working under the implication that another son of Jhebbal-Sag has arisen to unite them under one banner. I might change it to just the Wolf tribe, but combined with Aquilonia and the dangerous Pictish Wilderness it might be too difficult for the player.

Well, if I had any modding skills I'd be sure to offer help. Too bad I can't really do anything useful, heh. One thing I can do is writing though, so if you happen to need help writing unit descriptions or such, that I can do.

I'll remember that, cheers!

[Majestic7]

What kind of combat model do you plan to use? Between R:TW and M:TW II coming out I played mostly Europa Barbarorum and Rome Total Realism. I learned to like their combat models, with low speed of losses compared to the vanilla game, although the missile weapons were underpowered. Thus when M:TW II and later Kingdoms came out, it felt that the battles were decided too fast and even heavily armored troops were cut down too easily.

So I guess it boils down to whether you'll keep feeling of the vanilla combat or try to achieve something where soldiers don't die so fast and mass routs decide the battle instead of a mass slaughter?

[Taranaich]

The combat model will be a mix depending on the combatants.

Barbarian battles will be quick and bloody, as they tend to just charge right to it without thinking of pacing themselves, and usually end with massive casualties. Hyborian, Hyrkanian and Shemite battles are comparatively restrained, where battles are much longer and suffer few casualties, with routing being a more common result.

A quick look at the Conan tales gives a rough idea:

The Frost-Giant's Daughter = Conan is the only survivor of a bloody battle between AEsir and Vanir.
The Scarlet Citadel = Conan's knights are massacred by Kothic-Ophirean soldiers. None of these knights fled, apparently preferring death to the shame of surrender. Later, Conan routs the Kothic-Ophirean army.
Black Colossus = Conan's small army routs a large horde of Stygians, Kush-ites and Shemites, of which roughly half are killed.
Iron Shadows in the Moon = Conan is the only survivor of his Kozak horde, which are annihilated by Turanian forces.
The People of the Black Circle = Vendhyan cavalry rout Turanian cavalry whilst engaging an Afghuli army.
A Witch Shall Be Born = Conan's Zuagir take a Shemite-controlled city with moderate casualties, though their rivalry seems to indicate that no quarter will be given.
The Hour of the Dragon = The Aquilonian army is routed at Valkia, the Nemedian army at the Goralian Hills, all suffering only moderate casualties.

Overall, the speed of battle depends on which factions are fighting, the longest between two civilized nations, the shortest between two barbaric ones. A barbaric versus a civilized one will depend on the balance: a stronger barbarian force indicates a short battle, for example.

[keravnos]

Taranaich, anything you are modelling/skinning at a moment?

For no apparent reason, I feel I need to post this,
http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=5000

In it, a 2nd cousin of Robert E. Howard posts. He even served in 'Nam in 1969-1971. Seems that the family tree which produced Konan's writer (my own peculiarity to call him Konan, not Conan, please excuse me that) is still going strong after all these years.

I have to agree with Taranaich that if you want to read and know Conan read ONLY stuff that Robert E. Howard wrote. I did try to read some others' stuff with an open mind, but something felt very, VERY wrong in an indescribable way. It may just be me, I dunno.

[Taranaich]

Taranaich, anything you are modelling/skinning at a moment?

At the moment I'm working on the Shemites, who I'm pretty pleased with armour and clothing-wise. The only thing they're really missing are the distinctive Shemite beards, which will be done when I get Milkshape sorted out (or figure out a way to import M2 models into Lightwave). They look alright at the moment, but it's just not the same without the mighty bushes on their chins.

I have to agree with Taranaich that if you want to read and know Conan read ONLY stuff that Robert E. Howard wrote. I did try to read some others' stuff with an open mind, but something felt very, VERY wrong in an indescribable way. It may just be me, I dunno.

There have been some very good pasticheurs like Karl Edward Wagner and John Maddox Roberts, whose Conan stories are pretty effective, if not on Howard's own level. However, some of them are not just poorly written, but actively kind of offensive in their mediocrity: Roland Green, Steve Perry and Harry Turtledove's attempts are best ignored IMHO.

[Majestic7]

The combat model will be a mix depending on the combatants.

Barbarian battles will be quick and bloody, as they tend to just charge right to it without thinking of pacing themselves, and usually end with massive casualties. Hyborian, Hyrkanian and Shemite battles are comparatively restrained, where battles are much longer and suffer few casualties, with routing being a more common result.

(stuff cut from between)

Overall, the speed of battle depends on which factions are fighting, the longest between two civilized nations, the shortest between two barbaric ones. A barbaric versus a civilized one will depend on the balance: a stronger barbarian force indicates a short battle, for example.

So in game terms - barbarian units will have high attack and morale values, but poor defense and armor, while civilized units will have average attack and morale, but good defense and armor? It should be noted that casualties talked about in Conan stories don't necessary imply massive scale of deaths on the battlefield in itself - but as well pretty much every wounded man expiring of his wounds. I believe this can be represented in the game as well by giving the barbarian factions much worse chances of healing casualties after the battle.

[Taranaich]

So in game terms - barbarian units will have high attack and morale values, but poor defense and armor, while civilized units will have average attack and morale, but good defense and armor?

Pretty much.

It should be noted that casualties talked about in Conan stories don't necessary imply massive scale of deaths on the battlefield in itself - but as well pretty much every wounded man expiring of his wounds. I believe this can be represented in the game as well by giving the barbarian factions much worse chances of healing casualties after the battle.

Yup. Overall the impressions I got from the battles is that barbarians and similarly savage peoples like the Desert Shemites had bloody and deadly battles, but the Hyborians and Hyrkanians had battles more like medieval ones. Conan said that 50,000 people had died at the battle of Shamla Pass in Black Colossus: though it's just a rough estimate on Conan's part, it's still a pretty heft number of casualties.