Elephants

[Pharnakes]

A while ago somebody was asking why the Qarthadastim couldn't recruit armoured elephants. The team replied that was because they had no evidence that the Qarthadastim ever armoured their elephants. Anyway, What I was wanting to ask is; does that mean that other factions that do use amoured elephants (ie, hellenistic factions) can or will be able to, recruit amoured elephants in Numidia?

[Krusader]

A while ago somebody was asking why the Qarthadastim couldn't recruit armoured elephants. The team replied that was because they had no evidence that the Qarthadastim ever armoured their elephants. Anyway, What I was wanting to ask is; does that mean that other factions that do use amoured elephants (ie, hellenistic factions) can or will be able to, recruit amoured elephants in Numidia?

Nope. Forest Elephants were as far as our evidence shows not armored for any battles. Apparently only Indian ones were.

[Pharnakes]

Any theories why? (too small and weak, or what?)

[blank]

Any theories why? (too small and weak, or what?)

I can't make out over the net if you're joking or not. If you're not, then the African forest elephant is the largest elephant species.
If you are, then:
Forest elephants for whatever reason were very rarely used in battle at all (apparently they were not available enough), and thus an armored version would be even more unlikely.

[Pharnakes]

I thought that the affrican forest elephant was seperate from the african plains elephant (that is the largest speicies). Didin't the Romans more or less exterminate the forset elephant, so that now only the pigmy and plains elephants are left in africa?

[The Celt]

He's right. Forest Elephants(Aka "Bush" Elephants) are/were a separate species to the African Plains Elephants. And, as far as I know, those Bush Elephants were very small and couldn't support any kind of Metal armor.

In fact, doesn't a Roman historian mention how the Numidians would paint the outsides of their Howdahs?(Basket Tower thing the Archers/Peltasts ride in) They would paint them so that they looked like they were made of brick to fool their enemies into thinking their Elephants were stronger than they looked. I think it was Polybius who mentioned it but knowing him it could be entirely made up.(Would've been pretty smart of the Numidians if they could've done it though. )

[Eduorius]

The African Bush Elephant is the Largest elephant specie in Africa and is not the same as the African Forest Elephant.

The Asian or Asiatic Elephant (Elephas maximus), sometimes known by the name of its nominate subspecies (the Indian Elephant), is one of the three living species of elephant, and the only living species of the genus Elephas. By the way the Elephas includes the mamooth.

Now some wiki...

The African Forest Elephant (Loxodonta cyclotis) was until recently considered a subspecies of the African Bush Elephant (Loxodonta africana); however, DNA testing has now shown that there are in fact three extant elephant species: the two African types, formerly considered to be different populations of a single species, the African Elephant, and the South Asian species known as the Indian or Asian Elephant. The North African war elephant of Hannibal fame was a now-extinct fourth species or a subspecies of the Forest Elephant (Loxodonta (africana) pharaoensis[citation needed]); it disappeared around the 1st or 2nd century CE. The disputed Pygmy Elephants of the Congo basin, often assumed to be a separate species (Loxodonta pumilio) by cryptozoologists, are probably Forest Elephants whose diminutive size and/or early maturity is due to environmental conditions.

[tk-421]

He's right. Forest Elephants(Aka "Bush" Elephants) are/were a separate species to the African Plains Elephants. And, as far as I know, those Bush Elephants were very small and couldn't support any kind of Metal armor.

You've got this wrong. The African bush elephant and the plains elephant are the same thing. The forest elephant is a different species. The forest elephants, what the Carthaginians and Numidians would have used, were significantly smaller than the bush elephant and probably not strong enough to support much body armor. The bush elephants, although much larger and stronger (even larger and stronger than most Asian elephants), are nearly impossible to train and were probably used in only limited numbers or possibly not at all.

[EoE]

What if the African bush elephant carried a coconut? Any theories?

rgds/EoE

[The Celt]

You've got this wrong. The African bush elephant and the plains elephant are the same thing. The forest elephant is a different species. The forest elephants, what the Carthaginians and Numidians would have used, were significantly smaller than the bush elephant and probably not strong enough to support much body armor. The bush elephants, although much larger and stronger (even larger and stronger than most Asian elephants), are nearly impossible to train and were probably used in only limited numbers or possibly not at all.

Weird, I thought the Bush and forest ellies were the same thing. All well learn something new everyday!

@EoE:Well that depends. Is it a Bush Elephant from South Africa? Or is it a Bush Elephant from Central Africa?

[DeathEmperor]

I'll add what I can to this thread as I'm somewhat a veteran of discussions about which elephants were used in warfare by ancient peoples


The elephants that the Carthaginians, Numidians, and Ptolemaics used in battle were African Forest Elephants, and not the massive and more famous African Plains or Bush elephants species. These elephants were very small, perhaps if I remember correctly, not much larger than an average American car (although what constitutes an average American car is debatable as well ). I think from what I can remember it was only the Ptolemaics and pehaps Numidians who put towers on these elephants. I distinctly remember reading in a book of mine that the Carthaginians never equipped their elephants with towers, although they mave had archers or javelineers riding on their bare backs.

Turning to the Indian/Asian/Asiatic elephants they were much larger than their Forest elephants cousins (although definitely outmatched by the African Plains/Bush species). They had superior size, stamina (as they are reported as being dowed in bronze armour on many occasions), and battle ferocity. They were also from what i read much more easier to control in battle than Forest elephants, although this could have been caused by the tactic of giving them fermented wine before battle (a tactic used by the Indians for centuries in elephant warfare and may have been adopted by the Seleucids as well).


It's really late where I am right now, 3:35 am to be exact, so I'll make another contribution to this discussion later if I can.