New Unit: Horseboys

[Rhyfelwyr]

Just discovered a new unit over at the official TW site. Looks pretty good, I'm glad to see the Irish have unique looking armies. I was scared after I saw those Hornet Throwers, but I'm glad to see the majority of units seem to be realistic.

http://www.totalwar.com/index.html?p...medieval2/1/4/

[Kobal2fr]

Heh, Irish units really seem to have a Hobbit theme though
Were shoes that rare a commodity in the Emerald Isle ?

[Joshwa]

They still are!

...Totally getting deleted

[Mad Mac]

How are Hornet Throwers unrealistic? I sure as heck wouldn't want to face down a hive of crazed South American Hornets, (or any sort of poisonous jungle critter, really). I'm quite sure the unit existed historically, as well. Now if we get get archers with poisoned arrows...

Anyway, new Irish horseboy looks pretty cool. I'm hoping they are very light and very cheap in order to make them a little different from all the other mounted javelin tossers we have already.

[Ulstan]

I sure as heck wouldn't want to face down a hive of crazed South American Hornets, (or any sort of poisonous jungle critter, really). I'm quite sure the unit existed historically, as well.

Hmmmm do we have any records from the Spanish Conquistadors of their men being killed by Hornet Throwers?

[Sheogorath]

Hmmmm do we have any records from the Spanish Conquistadors of their men being killed by Hornet Throwers?

I believe there are a very few surviving records which depict a Mayan hornet/bee/wasp/stinging insect-throwing catapult. The insects in question were sealed inside jars or artificial hives prior to loading to avoid 'friendly-fire' as it were.
While not directly lethal, hornet stings are certainly enough to distract most people, even when a crazed native is charging towards you with chunks of obsidian embeded in a stick intent on chopping your head off.

[Joshwa]

Bee attack! Presumably it'll just be like naffatun but with an hilarious 'buzzing' noise

[John_Longarrow]

In game terms, I'm going to hazard a guess that the "Bee thrower" is going to inflict morale and fatigue damage rather than killing units. When combined with a follow on attack that could be a really lethal combo!

[Whacker]

Were shoes that rare a commodity[..]?

If you ever visit the good U S of A, go visit the homely folks in Kentucky sometime...

As for the new units, they don't look that bad honestly. The key things for me in the expansion are what EXACT new functionality will it offer, and will all of these be available in the original game.

[Mad Mac]

As far as the ratio of fantastic to mundane unit goes in these previews (although I like exotic units, personally) keep in mind that CA are trying to sale an expansion here. They want people to get all excited about bees, flamethrowers, and hobbits so they line up to buy 3 copies of kingdoms when it comes out, so they're going to throw out their best looking stuff for the previews.

Of course Boring McSpearBob, Generic PointyObject Man, Peasent UselessProjectileTosser, and Mr. Exactly-like-A-Unit-Everyone-Already-Has-With-A-Funny-Hat-And-2.3%-Price-Break-Dude aren't going to be given front and center treatment, but rest assured that their will doubtlessly be dozens of as yet un-announced and un-innovative units are in the wings, ready to charge out on a heroic crusade to cure insomnia, one hapless child at a time.

[Skott]

I guess if some battle at some point back in time actually had some men throwing bee hives or hornet nests at some enemy then you could argue its historically correct. But the idea of a unit in the game just seems silly to me. Doesnt make me go, "WoW! Cool! I cant wait to try that unit!" Personally, I find it a turn off to wanting the expansion.

[Agentdoom]

What are they going to do, send the dogs? or the bees? Or the dogs that when they bark they shoot bees at you?

It's a game, I'm sure some embellishment is allowed.

[IrishArmenian]

Great unit, I love javelin cavalry! The Ceitherne do look exactly like the Horseboys, but I think that is just the example they use for the previews.

[Mad Mac]

Personally, I find it a turn off to wanting the expansion.

Which is fine. I just don't understand people looking at a website that has 13 odd previewed units with more coming, and it's like "Oh man! A Battle Beekeeper? CA just broke history!" It's not like we haven't seen a jazillion relatively normal units, and CA is secretly planning to make kingdoms into a pokemon battle game were all units must use some form of produce or vegetable to fight for them.

It's going to be pretty much the same thing as every other Total War game, with a few oddball units that the historical purists can mod out of their games and feel all superior about it. Me, I'm going to squeeze as much fun out of them as I can.

I think it's interesting that the unit previews have generated so little discussion, actually...we got the Horseboys, who look like they have no sheild, and no armor=Super-light, cheap, jav-cav. Very different from Polish Nobles, Boyar Sons, and even Jinettes.

There's the Gwent Raiders...(Are they Welsh btw?) look like lightly armoured 1-hand sword users, no sheild, description indicates probably weak discipline and/or morale...This is effectively a new catagory of swordsmen, where all previous swordsmen could be put in 3 groups--DFKs, Slightly weaker but cheaper than DFKS, and slightly stronger than DFKS...Raiders could represent a type of swordsmen even weaker than Norse Swords/Urban Militia, but probably low tech and spammable.

Guachichil Warriors--hard to say what they'll be like, but they obviously represent an elite unit for Native Americans.

Followers of Perkunas--Presumably pretty strong, but no armor. I'm guessing a fantatic two-hander type unit with very high morale/attack but virtually no defense, especially against missles.

Flamethrower--Obviously distinct, but will be hard to balance.

Spanish Dragoons--Mounted, late-period Musketeers...we already have camel gunners and Reiters, but these guys will probably be very powerful/expensive.

Dievas Guard--The weapon is obviously quite distinct, but not in a way that lends itself to any obvious advantage. If they don't have lances, they could be a strong light Cav unit with weak charge but powerful melee attack...

Caliverman--Is it just me, or do the Irish have a definate "light, mobile" theme going for them? The smaller gun will probably cost them range and/or hitting power, but what's the upside?

Canons of the Holy Sepulchre--Picture a Zweihander type unit, but with very good stats, even if they are limited to heavy mail...oh yeah.

Burgher Pikeman--eh. I suppose if CA gets pikes working better, a strong pike militia unit could be useful.

Ceitherne--very similar to highlanders, really. Poor Scotts might be smartin a bit to have their best early unit poached.

Constable of Jerusalem--If the stats match the flavor text, I'm sold.

[Rhedd]

Yes, the Gwent raiders are Welsh.

[Kobal2fr]

In game terms, I'm going to hazard a guess that the "Bee thrower" is going to inflict morale and fatigue damage rather than killing units. When combined with a follow on attack that could be a really lethal combo!

I was thinking "man-carried diseased cow" myself. Why bother creating something entirely new when you can make use of an already coded yet rarely used early design ? Without the "huge flying bovine quarter" part, obviously, but you get the idea : lasting area effect, lasting morale damage to anyone crossing the affected zone, can affect your boys who are not War Beekeepers too if you're not carefull.

So yeah, quite interesting on the battlefield, actually.

It's just the whole concept of battle apiculture that ticks me off. I mean, have you ever *met* a beekeeper ? These guys are mellooooow. Probably because of all the smoke. Or maybe because they're all dang hippies . Or, you know, 'cuz they're one fast move away from horrible excruciating death all the time .

Kidding aside, apparently the Mayans were known for their aggressive use of insects (hornet bombs are also mentionned in Civ3 blurbs, if that's any reference), so CA didn't pull them entirely out of their hindquarters. I was going to say "but my problem is that each of these "may have been used, may have had an effect" gimmick units take up the space for one major but blander unit", but like MadMac aptly said, we haven't seen the whole range yet, so I'll go sit in the corner for now.

[Zarky]

I see new units to be good and quite realistic, Hornet throwers actually make sense even if there wouldn´t be historical proof of them. Of course they will be pretty much like Naffatun, short range and otherwise maybe good melee stats and defense (well, good in their own right)
Come on, europeans beat each other with farming tools, why smarter people can´t throw hornets to enemy instead of using clubs against gunpowder?

[rebelscum]

Anyway, new Irish horseboy looks pretty cool. I'm hoping they are very light and very cheap in order to make them a little different from all the other mounted javelin tossers we have already.

Thats what I call jockeys, a bunch of tossers on horseback

[Zoring]

Despite all these 'new' units they are all still using the default models (apart from the Irish it seems) the most disappointing thing about Med2 is that every unit in every army is the same apart from their color scheme. Looks like no change for the expansoin.

[Kobal2fr]

@Zoring : you're either on crack, or should be seeing an ophtalmologist. Apart from the Constable of Jerusalem who only has a tweaked FK skin, and the flamethrowers which are dismounted lantinkon with new weaps, all of the published new units are brand new, unique looking models in every way. Anyway, what did you expect, orks and lightsabers ? Chainmail is chainmail is chainmail.

But the Dievas' Guard have different looking padded armor than standard light cav ; the followers of Perkhunas have new cowled robes, new weaps and a new samurai top-knot ; the Burghers have more cloth on top of their chainmail than regular pikemen ; the Gwent raiders have scalemail instead of chain, plus helmets with a nasal guard ; the Canons don't look like any Foot Knight unit in the game that I know of, the Dragoons look like something straight out of Napoleon's army, and both Injun units are obviously quite unique. And throw bees . Sooo... where do the default models fit in ?

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think there is a 'generic feel' to the units in M2TW. Especially amongst Catholic factions. Doesn't bother me though, that tends to be the case in most PC games, how many games anywhere near the scale of M2TW have individual models and skins for different men of the same unit type? I think its realistic enough anyway, factions with similar cultures have similar looking troops. CA have done a good job of making every single faction in M2TW be unique in gameplay terms.

Pretty much all the units revealed from the expansion look completely unique anyway.

[Furious Mental]

I think MTW 2 does pretty well as far as variety of appearance goes. There could be more but if I am going to criticise MTW 2 for anything that won't be it.

[Antagonist]

I'm fairly pleased with the new units on the whole, but some of them seem a bit less inspired than I might have hoped (Lithuanians) and others are just vanilla reskins (like the Gwent Raiders, the most disappointing unit IMO)

The Horseboys are nice, the Irish units so far seem to be the most unique/best realised on the whole. The Ceitherne in particular actually seems very accurate historically, and lower-level Irish and Highland soldiers did often fight barefoot, sometimes from poverty but more often to aid them in extremely difficult terrain like bogs and cliffsides etc. The Horseboys are nice too, though I think a shortbow would be a better weapon for them, though javelins were more common.

If you check the Total War Blog entries you'll see they go into detail about what to expect from the Britannia factions which are all supposed to be different (England and Scotland are largely as vanilla, Wales has lighter units and excellent ranged troops, Ireland has light and very fast and mobile units, Norway is "attack-orientated") They mention a couple of units not yet revealed, such as Ireland eventually getting Mounted Calivermen as well as the infantry variant. I hope they have a few decent melee units though, some kind of "Reformed Galloglaich" (the later iterations with swords or halberds, better helmets and more Irish in character) would be cool.

Antagonist

[Sheogorath]

Wuts dis 'bout humies 'avin der 'Orseboyz? Humies aint got nuffin' on da real Boyz, buncha pink pansies 'oo ca' e'en get ta da fightin' wiffout prancin' around on der backs o' sum big 'airy fing. It aint even red, so'z i's not gonna go fasta 'n proppa Orky trukz.
GREEN IZ DA BEST! ORKS ORKS ORKS ORKS ORKS ORKS ORKS!
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

Seriosuly though, if they put Orks in Kingdoms I'll do something best left undescribed on this forum.

[Kobal2fr]

And now, I have this mental image of Irish hobbits riding huge Mekboars