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  1. #1
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Simple Guide for Complaing about Unit Stats

    Far as I can tell the "spear" attribute is (outside phalanxes natch) virtually entirely restricted to the secondary weapon of "sword-and-spear" units like Hypaspistai and the assorted Celtic elites (a fair few others with the same combination don't have the attribute for their secondaries). Since the primary weapon in all cases is a sword, and one with the whopping 0.225 lethality and in most cases but one point less attack than the secondary spear (which has the usual infantry overhand lethality of 0.13), I must wonder - how is the secondary weapon having the "spear" attribute in any way particularly relevant to an unit "performing poorly" (especially as it sidesteps the issue AI has with secondaries), and were it removed (or lacking to begin with, as with eg. the Gastiz and their ilk), what reason would anyone have to ever use the units' secondary weapons ?

    To me at least it would make sense to use the secondary overhand as a specialized "anti-cavalry" weapon to emphasize the versatility of these high-end units; certainly if it were stripped of any such factors, the only reason to ever use it would be for the sake of appereances...
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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    Βασιλευς και Αυτοκρατωρ Αρχης Member Centurio Nixalsverdrus's Avatar
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    Default AW: A Simple Guide for Complaing about Unit Stats

    I just changed the "stat_sec_attr" from "spear" to "no" for both Hypaspistai and Galatikoi Kuruathoroi. I hope they'll perform better.

    Btw, I always wondered why Pheraspidai have defence ability of 12, while Hypaspistai have 8? I know Hypas and Pheras were both members of the same corps, equipped and trained to serve in a different role. So why should Pheraspidai be 50% better in defence than Hypaspistai, when they are virtually the same? Or is it just to equalize the 14 armour of the Hypas with the 10 armor of the Pheras? The same goes for the Kuruathoroi. They have exactly the same stats as Hypaspistai, but shouldn't they have an armour value of ca. 12 instead of 14, wearing mail armour while the Hypaspistai wear a bronze cuirass?
    Last edited by Centurio Nixalsverdrus; 06-19-2007 at 21:56.

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    Member Member mAIOR's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: A Simple Guide for Complaing about Unit Stats

    It could be a mobility issue being that the peraspidais armor allowed better mobility than their hypaspistai counterparts...


    CHeers...

  4. #4
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Simple Guide for Complaing about Unit Stats

    The only real difference between the two in equipement I can see from the UI pics on the site is that the Hypas wear muscle-cuirasses for body armour and the Pheras something else, depending on faction - and given that none in any case restrict arm movement meaningfully, and one of the latter is a thigh-lenght mail hauberk (which weighs a ton and is AFAIK heavier than the muscle-cuirass), I don't really think the mobility argument holds.

    In practice the difference between the two is that the Pheras have had 4 points of armour shifted over to defense skill. Personally I'm willing to shrug that off as a somewhat arbitrary but acceptable way to keep the two even (since they are after all effectively the same guys in different outfits) within the confines of the sometimes unwieldy RTW unit-stat mechanics.

    Although frankly, it seems to me the Pheras' armour level is on par with the Thorakitai - wouldn't it really make more sense to use their armour value 12 instead, as the harnesses are pretty much comparable ? Just wondering.
    Last edited by Watchman; 06-20-2007 at 00:19.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Default Re: A Simple Guide for Complaing about Unit Stats

    could we get an SN of this elusive spear stat ? I need to know what the target looks like before I can kill it.


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    Member Member mAIOR's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Simple Guide for Complaing about Unit Stats

    I talked about mobility beacuse mail allowed for more rotation of the Torso.
    Also, I think that because of the EB stats system, Pheraspidai should have 12 armor instead of 10.


    Cheers...

  7. #7
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Simple Guide for Complaing about Unit Stats

    Quote Originally Posted by mAIOR
    I talked about mobility beacuse mail allowed for more rotation of the Torso.
    Not really - the stiffer forms of cuirasses (which most of the Phera skins wear in any case) just rotate around the body like the outer shells they are. Mail does tend to allow more bending than most other types though, particularly that "long" form of infantry muscle-cuirass with the extension to shield the lower abdomen which AFAIK makes it next to impossible to properly bend at the waist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybvep
    I have a suggestion: use "accuracy_vs_units" value (it's quite unique - the lower the better) in descr_projectile_new.txt for standard projectiles (arrows, javelins etc.). By that you can eg. make western archers less accurate than their eastern counterparts. I've tested it, and it works. Just another thing for stat-balancing and such (and without the "lethality" value for missile units it's quite useful, I think...).
    There's such a detail ? Neat, that opens up all kinds of possibilities. I've seen it mentioned in more instances than I care to even try to count that thrown spears, while quite powerful as such, had a bit of a problem due to being highly visible in flight and not the fastest projectiles around, with the due result that a man with room to move had an easy time dodging them (and close-order troops duly just having to put up with it)...
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  8. #8

    Default Re: A Simple Guide for Complaing about Unit Stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Far as I can tell the "spear" attribute is (outside phalanxes natch) virtually entirely restricted to the secondary weapon of "sword-and-spear" units like Hypaspistai and the assorted Celtic elites (a fair few others with the same combination don't have the attribute for their secondaries). Since the primary weapon in all cases is a sword, and one with the whopping 0.225 lethality and in most cases but one point less attack than the secondary spear (which has the usual infantry overhand lethality of 0.13), I must wonder - how is the secondary weapon having the "spear" attribute in any way particularly relevant to an unit "performing poorly" (especially as it sidesteps the issue AI has with secondaries), and were it removed (or lacking to begin with, as with eg. the Gastiz and their ilk), what reason would anyone have to ever use the units' secondary weapons ?

    To me at least it would make sense to use the secondary overhand as a specialized "anti-cavalry" weapon to emphasize the versatility of these high-end units; certainly if it were stripped of any such factors, the only reason to ever use it would be for the sake of appereances...
    hum.... I like to use the overhead spear when I put them in HOLD formation. Once I take HOLD off then I have them fight with swords.

    BTW... is just me, or do spear units preform MUCH better when in HOLD??

  9. #9
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: A Simple Guide for Complaing about Unit Stats

    Just to make sure: the spear attribute should be removed from all units, phalanx and non-phalanx troops alike?
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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Simple Guide for Complaing about Unit Stats

    The phalanx formation requires the spear, short_pike or long_pike attribute to be present AFAIK.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  11. #11
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: A Simple Guide for Complaing about Unit Stats

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    The phalanx formation requires the spear, short_pike or long_pike attribute to be present AFAIK.
    Sorry, do you mean that they need spear and short/long pike, or just one of the three?
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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Simple Guide for Complaing about Unit Stats

    I've seen it mentioned "short_pike" is bugged in some fashion; in any case EB doesn't use it so that point is moot. Anyway, looking at the EDU (*cough*hinthint*cough*) all phalanxes have at least "spear"; pikes have "long_pike" on top of that.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  13. #13
    Asia ton Barbaron mapper Member Pharnakes's Avatar
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    Smile Re: A Simple Guide for Complaing about Unit Stats

    Eb does use the short pike, for the ipracrathous hoplotai, no?
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