Possible oversight in Sparte unit creation (?)

**JMRC** · 06-20-2007, 10:21

Hi.

I don't know if this is a bug or an intended feature, but I noticed that the city of Sparte can't produce:

- "greek infantry taxeis hoplitai" in none of the factional MICs
- "greek infantry ekdromoi hoplitai" in none of the factional MICs above the 1st (militia_barracks_I1).

To solve this, I added the following code in each levels of the Barracks_I building (in the EDB file):

Code:

recruit "greek infantry taxeis hoplitai" 0 requires factions { thrace, greek_cities, } and hidden_resource SW and hidden_resource C and hidden_resource n1 and hidden_resource n2 and hidden_resource y4 and hidden_resource y8

as well as the following code in the levels of Barracks_I from the militia_barracks_i1 onward (in the EDB file):

Code:

recruit "greek infantry ekdromoi hoplitai" 0 requires factions { greek_cities, } and hidden_resource SW and hidden_resource C and hidden_resource n1 and hidden_resource n2 and hidden_resource y4 and hidden_resource y8

Since Sparte has the highest MIC level at the start of the game, the Greeks have great difficulty in winning against the Macedonians, because most of their initial units are Akontistai, Sphendenotai, Toxotai and Peltastai.

Also, I think that Athenai should start with a higher MIC level, so I put the following code in the Building creation block in the CAMPAIGN_SCRIPT.TXT:

Code:

;Attike - Athenai
;JMRC - console_command create_building Athenai muster_field_I
console_command create_building Athenai militia_barracks_I1

If you think this is not a bug, please move it into the Modding forum section.

**bovi** · 06-20-2007, 11:19

KH has rolled over Makedonia in every 0.8 game I've seen. Anyway, I think the limited recruitment in Sparta is intentional, but I can't remember the rationale.

**LusitanianWolf** · 06-20-2007, 17:21

Maybe because Sparte where an society very closed to new military ideas, they still fighting in the old heavy hoplite way and didnt used other fighting styles.

And in my last current romani campain they have almost defeated Maks and sended large armies agaisnt my Illydian settlements until I slayed them all.

**Sakkura** · 06-20-2007, 21:16

In my Roman and Baktrian campaigns, the Koinon Hellenon empire (lol) easily crushed the puny Makedonia, before subjugating such civilizations as Getai and Pontus.

The only time I saw them get destroyed by Makedonia was in my Makedonia campaign

**snevets** · 06-21-2007, 05:15

Or the fact that Sparta was somewhat downtrodden at this particular moment in history- that often leads to a resurgence of traditionalism.

**MarcusAureliusAntoninus** · 06-21-2007, 06:01

Originally Posted by bovi

KH has rolled over Makedonia in every 0.8 game I've seen.

Same here.

**Teleklos Archelaou** · 06-22-2007, 21:56

Every? You guys should take a look at the AI progression thread. It looks like KH is more than 50% ahead, but not much more. We are tweaking armies still and we'd like to see them lose more often than that I think - and KH now has Areus back on Krete for our new builds (trying him on the mainland was just too much of a stretch). It hurts the Maks that they are at war with both Epeiros and KH, while KH and Epeiros have nothing to fear from each other directly.

**mlp071** · 06-23-2007, 01:00

In every game they DO run over Maks and later Epeiros( usually they crush Maks by 265BC, except Mytilene)

For some reason they have :

- Mine in Athenai built already

- Starting population of Rhodos is close to 12000

- Athenai alone has more population then Demetrias and Pella together.

- In original EBBS script they get 6000 more on start then Maks(with Maks woefull ecenomy that adds up to 11000+ in first turn)

- With all that population and economics superior to anyone else in Greece ,they are multypying like rabbits , while Maks cannot cover their losses, even when Epeiros is fully involved in Italy only.

- Not to mention that KH and Epeiros share same recruiting facilities (although Epeiros was more close to Maks not KH , thru family ties) and all other facilities.

and more....to much to list ...

Personally , playing as KH in 0.8 is a big joke , thats how strong they are made(for some misterious reason).

So it's not Maks being to busy on 2 sides , it' s more KH is all pumped up to max from every side.Sometimes i have feeling that i am playing "World order according to KH " game .When you create just equal field between them and Maks ( i tested it like 20+ times ) then they both get chance to win.

For faction that was in full decline by EB time and basicaly vegetated after 267-261 BC war, till got swallowed by Rome , that's not to bad at all.

**Teleklos Archelaou** · 06-23-2007, 02:03

They do NOT overrun the Maks in every game. Look at the AI progression thread. You can say they do it every time all you want - but if you just look at that thread you will see actual evidence. I and the rest of the team are happy to look at balancing them more, but you are just trying to piss us off here it seems. I'd advise actually being straightforward instead of exaggerating the issue as a good way to start.

**mlp071** · 06-23-2007, 02:21

Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

They do NOT overrun the Maks in every game. Look at the AI progression thread. You can say they do it every time all you want - but if you just look at that thread you will see actual evidence.

I do check that , however most of the campaigns do have some additional modifications , which could or could not affect the outcome.I am talking about plain , no modifications EB campaign.That could easily be checked out by runing campaign (as Casse) several times till like 260BC,with plain ebbs.

Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

I and the rest of the team are happy to look at balancing them more, but you are just trying to piss us off here it seems. I'd advise actually being straightforward instead of exaggerating the issue as a good way to start.

I am not trying to "piss" anyone . Everyone that knows me will tell you that i don't mind saying it as it is.If you understood that in that way i do appologize.I did mention all this in some other thread before.And i believe completely , even if you did gave them to much of resources , it was not intentional.

On the other hand, things(calculations and observations ) that i listed above (mines , population,money etc...)are easy to check...So if you guys do have time to check , i would be really appriciative for that...i am pretty sure you will find that all those numbers are correct..Thanks in advance.

And i could be wrong to, after all no one is perfect

****EDIT: I forgot to add , if you guys are to busy , i don't mind helping and posting all that on forum , along with parts of scripts and campaign photo's of buildings along with it

Plus i am little bit confused about Pyrrhus being near Pella. According to historical resources he was besieging Sparta in 272 , so that also brings up good relations between KH and Epeiros in game ?Thanks

**Dumbass** · 06-23-2007, 14:16

I have to agree with mlp071, the koinon are very over powered, in every game I have played they have battered Macedon in about 10-20 years, unless I pump macedon full of money or directly intervene (Macedon still have a hard time even with that help).

Yeah mods need to be taken into account and the fact that people aid their preferred factions with money boosts. I am surprised and I cannot believe that the screenshots in the AI progression threads are showing natural Macedon expansion where macedon is a powerhouse. It cannae be true. The only time i have seen macedon naturally beat the Koinon was when they did their rare cockroach maneuver. With the victory conditions mod I set macedon's target areas as all of greece, and made Koinon's targets just southern greece. The chremonidian war has played out very accurately, with Athens fallen and only sparta left.

**mlp071** · 06-23-2007, 19:33

Originally Posted by Dumbass

I have to agree with mlp071, the koinon are very over powered, in every game I have played they have battered Macedon in about 10-20 years, unless I pump macedon full of money or directly intervene (Macedon still have a hard time even with that help).

Yeah mods need to be taken into account and the fact that people aid their preferred factions with money boosts. I am surprised and I cannot believe that the screenshots in the AI progression threads are showing natural Macedon expansion where macedon is a powerhouse. It cannae be true. The only time i have seen macedon naturally beat the Koinon was when they did their rare cockroach maneuver. With the victory conditions mod I set macedon's target areas as all of greece, and made Koinon's targets just southern greece. The chremonidian war has played out very accurately, with Athens fallen and only sparta left.

Thats ok man , i don't want to take over this fine gentleman's thread with this issue.

So , as soon i get enough time (family obligations att), i will open different post for discussion about this matter.With the all stats , script parts and screenpics of buildings, historical data that i can gather about it, etc.....

As a part of constructive effort to improve this issue , off course

**Teleklos Archelaou** · 06-23-2007, 19:42

Pyrrhos started the year back in Epeiros, he got permission to go around the Aitolians' lands and put ashore in the Peloponnese all in the campaigning season. That's also why we need to move Areus back to Krete - at the start of the year he hadn't come to the Peloponnese yet since Pyrrhos hadn't attacked yet.

I will assure you that we will look more closely at the issue - we don't get too excited about fine tuning city population and building levels yet till most units are in, but since KH and Maks have most of them, we can look more closely at their cities now I think.

edit: I will add that we aren't trying to destroy the KH faction within five years of the start of the game though. I think we would not mind seeing Athens fall in most games, but sparta and rhodes still should be able to get by for quite a while. Let's not insist that they are totally wiped out or even relegated only to Rhodes in every or nearly every game either now.

**mlp071** · 06-23-2007, 19:51

Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Pyrrhos started the year back in Epeiros, he got permission to go around the Aitolians' lands and put ashore in the Peloponnese all in the campaigning season. That's also why we need to move Areus back to Krete - at the start of the year he hadn't come to the Peloponnese yet since Pyrrhos hadn't attacked yet.

I will assure you that we will look more closely at the issue - we don't get too excited about fine tuning city population and building levels yet till most units are in, but since KH and Maks have most of them, we can look more closely at their cities now I think.

edit: I will add that we aren't trying to destroy the KH faction within five years of the start of the game though. I think we would not mind seeing Athens fall in most games, but sparta and rhodes still should be able to get by for quite a while. Let's not insist that they are totally wiped out or even relegated only to Rhodes in every or nearly every game either now.

I really appriciate that , and i can provide all gathered observations and help as much you want me to.My effort was mostly towards all 3 factions having close to equal chance of winning /losing.

If you check my small works so far i did ,i don't believe there is a reason for any faction to go down fast , but opposite. Specially in Greece case , when protracted AI fight between all factions is slowing down potential "monster " to develop.

I just want to be clear , that i would have asked same questions if i observed these issues with any of the other factions.I like EB and i am impressed with amount of knowledge that was collected here.But i also like game balance .

Thank you for response.