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Thread: Iran’s War Against The United States

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Iran’s War Against The United States

    Iran’s War Against The United States

    by Jay Reding · June 7th, 2007

    TigerHawk takes a detailed look at Iran’s proxy war against the United States. It’s become indisputable that Iranian agents are arming Iraqi insurgent groups — even NATO is confirming it. Now evidence is being uncovered which indicates that the Iranians are arming the Taliban in Afghanistan as well.

    We can’t keep pretending that Iran and the United States are not in a de facto state of war. No amount of fruitless negotiation is going to change Tehran’s dream of establishing regional hegemony. We need to be taking a much harder line towards Tehran, which may mean the use of military force.

    We cannot simply let the Ahmadinejad regime continue to develop nuclear weapons and provide arms to terrorist groups across the region. The nightmare scenario is that both come together and the Iranians give a working nuclear device to a terrorist group — if that happens, a major allied city will be attacked and the death toll will be catastrophic. To put one’s trust in a messianic madman like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and assume that the Iranian government would not do such a thing is not a safe bet.

    We’re in the midst of a war that’s larger than Iraq and Afghanistan, and our enemies know that our cowardly political culture is constraining our actions. We have to recover the initiative, otherwise the results of our weakness will be a Middle East that is controlled by Iran and another Cold War — against an enemy for whom the traditional concepts of deterrence will not apply.
    LINK

    The current trouble in Gazza can also be attributed to Iran. Are we not in reality already at war?


    From another site

    16 trucks carrying weapons and large sums of money from Iran were discovered over the past few days en route to Iraq, according to an Iraqi Defence Ministry source.

    Speaking to the Iraqi daily Al-Mashreq, the source said that the weapons included rifles, mortar rounds, and explosives. He said that those arrested admitted to being agents of Iran’s Ministry of Intelligence and Security (MOIS), and said that lodging had been provided for them in Samara, Balad, Najaf, and Latifiyeh.

    The individuals revealed that they work working on behalf of the MOIS in conjunction with Iran’s Fajr Forces. During interrogation the Iranian agents also revealed the names of a number of Fajr commanders and MOIS agents whom they worked for.
    Yet I hear those of you in Europe think its all over blown. It looks like Europe in the 30s to me.
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Right now we really have to left them off with nothing more then a warning a few sanctions. The U.S. dosn't have the strength to fight a third war without completly mobilizing our population. Something which should already be done for Iraq if we want to stand a chance at winning. Secondly an invasion of Iran could esaily turn into another Iraq. The terrian in fact is perfect for a gurrilla war. Plenty of mountains and stuff to hide in.
    When it occurs to a man that nature does not regard him as important and that she feels she would not maim the universe by disposing of him, he at first wishes to throw bricks at the temple, and he hates deeply the fact that there are no bricks and no temples
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    The U.S. dosn't have the strength to fight a third war without completly mobilizing our population. Something which should already be done for Iraq if we want to stand a chance at winning.
    So is it time to or get off the pot? Remember also that the Iranians are not arabs and their is much dislike for them in the region. These guys are fine with taking their money and guns but I dont think they want them telling them what to do. What is the alternative? Talk to them like Chamberlain did with Hitler? Even the anti semitsim reeks of nazi Germany. Will the world wake up before they have nukes? Just imagine suicide bombers on a greater scale.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 06-15-2007 at 15:46.
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    It’s become indisputable that Iranian agents are arming Iraqi insurgent groups
    I wouldn't say this is indisputable as there seems to be scant if any hard evidence of this.

    However, even if it is happening, so what. The USA itself is arming Insurgents, and then telling them to go kill Al-Qaida. Therefore if the article is to be believed, then the USA must be in a proxy war with itself also.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Yet I hear those of you in Europe think its all over blown. It looks like Europe in the 30s to me.
    Our dhimmi's are way too busy with domestic apleasement. Anyway, the day they can build a bomb Israel will destroy their facilities, or let america do it. Probably the latter. I am not that worried about Iran, whatever they are shooting at us probably makes a 360 before landing on their own heads, and if it actually reaches europe we can just shoot it down with patriots.

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    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Gawain could you finish with that propaganda plz :) You can say "we are able to win with Iran" but at the moment USA is far to weak to do it.
    Into Afghanistan and Iraq you had strong support from people of these countries (they hate you now but its different issue). You can't expect it into Iran.
    There are same people into Iran like those who stopped Alexander on 4 years. People there are united into hate of America. Furthermore they are pround from themselves and they are better democracy than any muslim country exept Turkey. So THEY HAVE SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN DEFEND which is half of succes.
    Of course it will be easy to attack them from air and make big damage. But if you want win there, you have to use air forces. And this will be never performed without great loses. I don't think any other country support you there (even mine) which means that you will have to sacrifice your American boys.
    Another issue is weapon. Iraq had practically no new weapon and no one supported it (even if your info is real - I don't believe American agencies because of CIA propaganda). Iran is able to buy as much Russian/Chineese modern gun, as they want.
    We can't forget that Iran is not Germany into 30ties. Iranians don't claim that half of Asia should belong to them. They are simply strongest country into that Region (I count Israel and Turkey as Euro Region) and they deserved on hegemony. And there is something else. I don't remember Iran terrorists but I remember war criminals or terrorists from countries that America love support (Saudi Arabia, Israel).

    So all in all - you (Americans) can attack Iran, but on your own. Don't scream for help when you will be loosing.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Gawain could you finish with that propaganda plz :) You can say "we are able to win with Iran" but at the moment USA is far to weak to do it.
    Thats a quite convoluted statement.

    Into Afghanistan and Iraq you had strong support from people of these countries (they hate you now but its different issue). You can't expect it into Iran.
    Then its all lies that most young Iranians dont like their government.

    Im not a war monger but dont you people see the writing on the wall. Again this is Nazi Germany all over again. The longer the world waits to take action the harder it will be to stop these maniacs. Their attacking us as we speak. There is already a war going on is my point.

    wouldn't say this is indisputable as there seems to be scant if any hard evidence of this.
    Iranian Flow Of Weapons Increasing, Officials Say

    Iranian Flow Of Weapons Increasing, Officials Say
    Arms Shipments Tracked To Iraqi, Afghan Groups

    By Robin Wright
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Sunday, June 3, 2007; Page A14

    Iran has increased arms shipments to both Iraq's Shiite extremists and Afghanistan's Taliban in recent weeks in an apparent attempt to pressure American and other Western troops operating in its two strategic neighbors, according to senior U.S. and European officials.

    In Iraq, Iranian 240mm rockets, which have a range of up to 30 miles and could significantly change the battlefield, have been used recently by Shiite extremists against U.S. and British targets in Basra and Baghdad, the officials said. Three of the rockets have targeted U.S. facilities in Baghdad's Green Zone, and one came very close to hitting the U.S. Embassy in the Iraqi capital, according to the U.S. officials.

    U.S. Says Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq Militias


    U.S. Says Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq Militias

    Listen to this story... by Jamie Tarabay

    Iraqi soldier secures the site where a car bomb exploded
    Enlarge
    Ahmad al-Rubaye

    An Iraqi army soldier secures the site where a car bomb exploded at Baghdad's al-Mansur neighborhood, Feb. 11, 2007. At least one person was killed and three others were wounded in the blast. AFP/Getty Images



    All Things Considered, February 11, 2007 · U.S. officials say they have evidence that Iran is supplying weapons to Iraqi extremist groups. They also say they have proof showing that orders to these militant groups come from the highest levels in Iran's government.

    The American officials spoke on condition of anonymity. No recording devices were allowed at the briefing, but those speaking said they were comfortable with their claims.

    There was a slideshow depicting three main routes from Iran into Iraq which, the officials maintain, are used to smuggle in weapons and weapons parts. Some weapons parts were also on display in the briefing room including the mortar round parts that an explosives expert says was manufactured in Iran. The expert also presented a particular brand of rocket-propelled grenade that he said was manufactured only in Iran.

    But the U.S. officials focused mainly on a deadlier version of the improvised explosive device: the explosively formed penetrator. It's a tin-can-shaped explosive covered with a lid of copper that turns into molten rock and pierces through armored vehicles. The officials said the use of this weapon has nearly doubled since it was first introduced in May 2004. More than 170 coalition forces have been killed by it, they said, and more than 620 have been wounded.

    Iran was operating in Iraq through extremist groups, the officials claim. They said that among those groups were radical elements of the Mahdi Army, the Shiite militia loyal to radical cleric Muqtada al Sadr.

    The officials again noted the detention of five Iranian men in a raid last month. They said one was a senior operations chief for the Quds Force, an arm of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, which answers to Iran's religious leaders.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Gawain, there's a world of difference between being dissatisfied with your government and welcoming in foreign conquerers. If that wasn't the case, the USA would have been flying the flag of foreign conquerers for much of its history.

    I don't think you're fully grasping the size of the task you're proposing. You seem to think you're going to have a 1 week cakewalk, the Iranians will fold with no resistance, and within the matter of a month, they'll be welcoming us as heroes.

    I'm sorry Gawain, it's simply not going to happen that way. The Iranians will fight for every inch. Yes, IF we send enough troops (and nothing in the White House makes me think they're wise enough to hold off until they have enough troops), and I'm talking 7 or 8 divisions, minimum, we could probably wear them down eventually. But what do you think is going to happen in the meantime? We have thousands of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan in virtually unfortified positions. You don't think Iranian artillery is going to find them?

    Do you really think we're going to take them out with 1 punch? I don't. You're more right about the WWII analogy then you realize. When we started, it was far from certain that we would be victorious, and we acted that way. If we invade Iran, it will be a long, ugly, messy affair, and if we don't go total war, ala WWII style with drafts and sequestering our economy and women running the military industrial machine with every able bodied man in training or in the field, we will lose.

    And what about Pakistan, at that point? What about Indonesia? Syria? Are we just going to keep invading every country that pisses us off?

    I thought you were an isolationist?
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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Im not a war monger but dont you people see the writing on the wall. Again this is Nazi Germany all over again. The longer the world waits to take action the harder it will be to stop these maniacs.
    I see it very clearly.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Gawain, there's a world of difference between being dissatisfied with your government and welcoming in foreign conquerers. If that wasn't the case, the USA would have been flying the flag of foreign conquerers for much of its history.
    No kidding

    I don't think you're fully grasping the size of the task you're proposing. You seem to think you're going to have a 1 week cakewalk, the Iranians will fold with no resistance, and within the matter of a month, they'll be welcoming us as heroes.

    I'm sorry Gawain, it's simply not going to happen that way. The Iranians will fight for every inch. Yes, IF we send enough troops (and nothing in the White House makes me think they're wise enough to hold off until they have enough troops), and I'm talking 7 or 8 divisions, minimum, we could probably wear them down eventually. But what do you think is going to happen in the meantime? We have thousands of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan in virtually unfortified positions. You don't think Iranian artillery is going to find them?

    Do you really think we're going to take them out with 1 punch? I don't. You're more right about the WWII analogy then you realize. When we started, it was far from certain that we would be victorious, and we acted that way. If we invade Iran, it will be a long, ugly, messy affair, and if we don't go total war, ala WWII style with drafts and sequestering our economy and women running the military industrial machine with every able bodied man in training or in the field, we will lose.

    And what about Pakistan, at that point? What about Indonesia? Syria? Are we just going to keep invading every country that pisses us off?

    I thought you were an isolationist?
    And I am an isloationist. But they are attacking us and killing our soldiers. If thats not war what is?

    Are you done with your rant?

    What Im suggesting is world war three. Im not talking about any cake walk far from it. This is not just a US Iranian problem.

    And what about Pakistan, at that point? What about Indonesia? Syria? Are we just going to keep invading every country that pisses us off?
    Syria maybe. Is Pakistan or Indonesia supplying men and arms that are killing our soldiers?

    I see it very clearly.
    Im glad Im not alone. Its like the old oil change commercial. You can pay me now or you can pay me later. The problem is later costs a lot more.
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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    I don't think you're fully grasping the size of the task you're proposing. You seem to think you're going to have a 1 week cakewalk, the Iranians will fold with no resistance, and within the matter of a month, they'll be welcoming us as heroes.
    Well Don we disagree, for the simple reason Gawain in his brilliance hasnt proposed anything by way of military action in this thread. He has given absolutely no specific at all as to what he thinks should be done.

    I'm sorry Gawain, it's simply not going to happen that way. The Iranians will fight for every inch. Yes, IF we send enough troops (and nothing in the White House makes me think they're wise enough to hold off until they have enough troops), and I'm talking 7 or 8 divisions, minimum, we could probably wear them down eventually. But what do you think is going to happen in the meantime? We have thousands of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan in virtually unfortified positions. You don't think Iranian artillery is going to find them?
    To a large degree this assumes invasion, invasion is unlikely for the reasons you cite, but air strikes are more plausable.

    If we invade Iran, it will be a long, ugly, messy affair, and if we don't go total war, ala WWII style with drafts and sequestering our economy and women running the military industrial machine with every able bodied man in training or in the field, we will lose.
    Big "if", and the ending "we will lose" I disagree if infact what you state would happen came to fruition, a WWII total war effort.

    Again I might have missed Gawain commenting on an invasion, if I did I appologize, but its clear to me that the force structure for air strikes against nuclear facilities exsist right now, and most likely thats the course of action (if any) that would occur.


    Right after I clicked post Gawain posted:
    What Im suggesting is world war three. Im not talking about any cake walk far from it. This is not just a US Iranian problem.


    So that pretty much negates most of my post.
    Last edited by Odin; 06-15-2007 at 14:39.
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    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Sorry Gawain, but you are a war mongerer. Of the worst kind because you don't seem to be aware of the consequences. You are most certainly not an isloationist, nor a libertarian, if you believe that foreign military ventures and total war are necessary and desirable.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    So that pretty much negates most of my post.
    No I would try your way first. Im not saying lets ratchet it up and all go to war today. But these guys have been poking and pushing us around for years looking to see what they can get away with and I think theve pretty much come to the same conclusion as OBL. That we are a paper tiger and that the rest of the west is apaethitic. Its time to put up or shut up. They have to take us seriously. But if this guy really thinks its his duty to bring about the end of the world what can you do? What if you have a nation that itself is a giant suicide bomber threatening to explode?

    Im saying that if we do go to war it has to be a united front. Not just the US vs Iran. Doing anything on our own again would not only be foolish but reckless.
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 06-15-2007 at 14:45.
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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Im saying that if we do go to war it has to be a united front. Not just the US vs Iran. Doing anything on our own again would not only be foolish but reckless.
    I agree a lot of the west is apathetic, a united front inst necessary at all, because the goal shouldnt be elimination of Iran, regime change, or societal correction.

    It should be to eliminate thier ability to produce nuclear capabilities. That can be achieved via airstrikes by the U.S. alone.

    Look at the current deployment of forces, this is exactly the course that will happen, as the capability is there to achieve airstrikes only.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    I disagree about the airstrikes and slowly building up aggression. This is an all or none affair. It's like being a little-bit pregnant, it just can't be done. We're either going to go to war with Iran, and in doing so we need to do everything we can do to see to it that the war is over as quickly as possible and with the fewest casualties to our side as possible, or we need to find alternate outlets for our hostility.

    Airstrikes will mean US troop casualties in the hundreds, if not thousands. Our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are not in fortified positions. Iran's response to an airstrike will be short range and medium range missile fire and artillery shelling into our troops in these areas.

    I don't see any middle ground here. Either we hit Iran quickly, with overwhelming force and get them wrapped up as quickly as possible (I'm talking Shock & Awe and then some, followed by 10 or 11 division, the 7 or 8 I cited was to actually have a shot at winning even long term).

    We also need to be formulating NOW an extraction policy for getting the hell out of there when we're done. Identify what goals we wish to accomplish, do them, and then getting the Hell out of Dodge.

    That's what I recommend if we do anything. I still contend it's just going to breed more anger and distance our allies from us further. I think it's a mistake, and I think we need to start looking to see if there's anything we can do to find some sort of middle ground with the Iranians. For the past 30 years, we have steadfastly refused to even have diplomatic contact with them, let alone negotiate any sort of agreements. Clearly the deep-freeze diplomacy ain't working. Neither are our embargoes. We can't even get Britain and Israel to quit trading with them, let alone China or Russia.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    As for getting anybody else to sign on with us for engaging in a fight with Iran, what planet are you guys living on? The only people who would sign on for that are the Israelis, and we're trying to keep them out of it. Do you really see Britain, or Australia or Canada sending troops (or jets) to Tehran?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Do you really see Britain, or Australia or Canada sending troops (or jets) to Tehran?
    Hopefully it will never come to that. But if they dont at least stand behind us in this I think the world is in deep doo doo.
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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    [QUOTE=Don Corleone]
    I disagree about the airstrikes and slowly building up aggression. This is an all or none affair. It's like being a little-bit pregnant, it just can't be done.
    If you believe its all or nothing your entitled, my position is to stop thier nuclear capability only, Im not intrested in how they run thier affairs internally.

    or we need to find alternate outlets for our hostility.
    Maybe we can give tax breaks to corporations that sell them nuclear technology? Sarcasm aside Don, are you of the mindset that Iran isnt going to develop a military application for nuclear technology? If you are, okay we disagree again, if your not then isnt the hostility justified? I concede it comes down to intent, but are you a gambler?

    Airstrikes will mean US troop casualties in the hundreds, if not thousands. Our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are not in fortified positions. Iran's response to an airstrike will be short range and medium range missile fire and artillery shelling into our troops in these areas.
    Agreed, but I dont think this will happen tomorrow, and if I had my way the troops would be out of the middle east anyway. that said, I agree that it puts troops in harms way, war does that, but there is nothing procluding a drawn down of troops before the strike occurs. Seems to me thats going to happen around sept anyway when MR Bush looses his republican blockade in the senate.

    Think the 2 carrier strike forces will still be in hormuz during the draw down and after? I do.

    I still contend it's just going to breed more anger and distance our allies from us further.
    more then there is now?

    I
    think it's a mistake, and I think we need to start looking to see if there's anything we can do to find some sort of middle ground with the Iranians. For the past 30 years, we have steadfastly refused to even have diplomatic contact with them, let alone negotiate any sort of agreements. Clearly the deep-freeze diplomacy ain't working. Neither are our embargoes.
    I agree to this, I personally think Rice should go to Tehran and talk to them one on one and attempt to find a way out of it. However back in reality, the ideal situation rarely occurs, and thus it behooves us to discuss the likelyhood of possibilities within the constraints of said reality.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    As for getting anybody else to sign on with us for engaging in a fight with Iran, what planet are you guys living on? The only people who would sign on for that are the Israelis, and we're trying to keep them out of it. Do you really see Britain, or Australia or Canada sending troops (or jets) to Tehran?
    I have been clear on my position in the past about the antiquated alliance structures we are in. We need to get out of them and not rely on alliances. thats why total war needs to be total war, not the halfassed wars Bush has us in.

    Total war with Iran isnt necessary, no one needs to send troops there.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

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    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    I have been clear on my position in the past about the antiquated alliance structures we are in. We need to get out of them and not rely on alliances. thats why total war needs to be total war, not the halfassed wars Bush has us in.

    Total war with Iran isnt necessary, no one needs to send troops there.
    Yes, total war! And while you screw your economy up completely you can drag the rest of us down with you. Thanks! Maybe if we can make enough guns to sell to both sides we can keep our economy going....

    Fantasists.
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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyspy
    Yes, total war! And while you screw your economy up completely you can drag the rest of us down with you. Thanks! Maybe if we can make enough guns to sell to both sides we can keep our economy going....

    Fantasists.
    Our economy will be just fine thanks, as far as you going down with us, perhaps it will be a wonderful motivator for you and your european cohorts to approve the EU constitution so you wont be dragged down by anyone else?
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Of course Iran is developing nuclear technology for military capability. Defensive or offensive remains in doubt, but I don't think anybody but the most gullible polly-anna out there actually believes AJ that it's to help them shift off of oil dependence .

    My point is this... airstrikes are going to inflame the situation. Iran will not just sit back and let us destroy what they've spent 12 years and billions of dollars developing (not to mention the huge hit to their national prestige). There will be consequences. Serious ones. Do you really think the American public is just going to sit back after your airstrikes, when the Iranians retaliate by bombing all our airbases in Afghanistan, and their sons start coming home in body bags in with "well, it was a price we had to pay, at least they're not nuclear armed" ?

    No, here's how this will play out:

    -We launch airstrikes to reduce (we won't be able to eliminate) their nuclear capabilites

    -We get admonished by a host of other nations.

    -Iran launches artillery barrages at our positions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    What do you think comes next? We just sit back and take it? I don't.

    -US launches a 'shock and awe' style bombardment against Iran to reduce their ability to shell troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    -Iran sends divisions of troops into Iraq.

    -We wind up where I said we would.

    This is all but an inescapable progression starting with airstrikes. Which is why I think it's foolish to do anything so half-assed. Realize what's coming next and take away their capability for it BEFORE they do it if you have any intentions of any military strikes.

    But again, I say no, not airstrikes, not an invasion. A military response is not the right way to go here.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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  23. #23
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    But again, I say no, not airstrikes, not an invasion. A military response is not the right way to go here.
    What is your solution then?
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  24. #24
    Member Member Petrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Quote Originally Posted by DonCorleone
    That's what I recommend if we do anything. I still contend it's just going to breed more anger and distance our allies from us further. I think it's a mistake, and I think we need to start looking to see if there's anything we can do to find some sort of middle ground with the Iranians. For the past 30 years, we have steadfastly refused to even have diplomatic contact with them, let alone negotiate any sort of agreements. Clearly the deep-freeze diplomacy ain't working. Neither are our embargoes. We can't even get Britain and Israel to quit trading with them, let alone China or Russia.
    I think that's the biggest problem.

    A total lack of diplomatic and commercial relationship leaves only one option, sabres rattling while other negotiate in your place or war.
    The limits of this system can be shown even with a small and weak country such as North Corea.

    In the case of Iran it lets you powerless and passive, depending on other's goodwill. This is never a good situation and I think it makes things really bad when mutual relationship is degraded, such as it is now after the Irak fiasco.

    You can see the difference with a country such as Pakistan, hard line islamist, terrorist active supporter, atomic bomb owner and atomic technology seller dictatorship. The relative danger represented by Pakistan seems much greater than the one of Iran. But Iran is presented as something utterly evil while it is possible to negotiate some forms of agreements with Pakistan.

    The tools used to deal with those countries are simply different as are the objectives they can manage to reach.

    By choosing permanent confrontation, as long as you do not have the means to fully dominate military, economically, politically and diplomatically your opponent your only reachable objective is confrontation.

    If you want to reach some form of compromise, than you must negotiate, put economic or political pressure, hence have some sort of normal relationship with your opponent.

  25. #25
    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Of course Iran is developing nuclear technology for military capability. Defensive or offensive remains in doubt, but I don't think anybody but the most gullible polly-anna out there actually believes AJ that it's to help them shift off of oil dependence .
    Okay so we agree on this, but lest we forget that Iran is also the nation that wants to wipe israel off the map, and considers the U.S. "the great satan". Sounds offensive in nature to me, again I understand why they want the bomb, but are you a gambler Don? Im not.


    My point is this... airstrikes are going to inflame the situation. Iran will not just sit back and let us destroy what they've spent 12 years and billions of dollars developing (not to mention the huge hit to their national prestige). There will be consequences. Serious ones.
    Oh I know that, but far less serious if it was a total war invasion with the deaths of thousands, if not 10s of thousands of military.

    Do you really think the American public is just going to sit back after your airstrikes, when the Iranians retaliate by bombing all our airbases in Afghanistan, and their sons start coming home in body bags in with "well, it was a price we had to pay, at least they're not nuclear armed" ?
    I think the voices will be louder if they do infact have the bomb and instead of airbases, its boston or nashua, and grandma comes home in the body bag.


    -We launch airstrikes to reduce (we won't be able to eliminate) their nuclear capabilites
    agreed.

    -We get admonished by a host of other nations.
    happens everyday,multiple times over and over hardly a new circumstance.

    -Iran launches artillery barrages at our positions in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Yes, and they get admonished (of course not as strongly) for attacking thier neibhors.

    What do you think comes next? We just sit back and take it? I don't.
    I think it becomes a protracted engagement of limited warfare to be honest Don, I dont think we will engage land forces, in the case of Iran and airstrikes I suspect that after a month or two of bombing back and forth some sod at the U.N. will broker a cease fire.

    -US launches a 'shock and awe' style bombardment against Iran to reduce their ability to shell troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Possibly, but Im not sold on that one just yet, you are swaying me though.

    -Iran sends divisions of troops into Iraq.
    After having bombed afghanistan as well? So a two front war on land (with non U.S. nations) and sea and air war? sounds ambitous.

    -We wind up where I said we would.
    You just want me to say your right.

    Realize what's coming next and take away their capability for it BEFORE they do it if you have any intentions of any military strikes.
    yes I agree, thats pretty much my point don

    But again, I say no, not airstrikes, not an invasion. A military response is not the right way to go here.
    It may not be, but the evidence supports that that is the way we are going, I understand there are glimmers in there of an opportunity to go another course, but one only needs to look at recent U.S. military history (start with grenada) to see the course this looks to be heading.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

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  26. #26
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    What is your solution then?
    First, you're talking as though we actually have the option of stopping them from developing the bomb. Airstrikes will not end their nuclear program, it will just set it back. It requires a full scale invasion to actually end it.

    Second, any hope we had of 'keeping people from developing nuclear weapons' ended when Pakistan and India did it. You can't stop Iran from becoming nuclear if they really really want to, short of occupying the entire country. The one thing that can be said about Iraq is that it did finally end Saddam's nuclear ambitions (though I still think it was a mistake).

    The way to proceed is to find something Iran wants more. Money, they have that. Technology? Not a lot of that, on their own. Normalized relations with the United States? Now there's something they might be willing to discuss. A role in determining the future of their neighborhood? Now we're getting warm.

    What's wrong with sitting down with them and laying a revolver and a piece of carrot cake on the table in front of them and ask them which of the two they want us to give them?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  27. #27
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    What's wrong with sitting down with them and laying a revolver and a piece of carrot cake on the table in front of them and ask them which of the two they want us to give them?
    You have to have a loaded revolver and they have to believe you will use it. But even this logic doesnt work here. And people worry about god talking to GWB.


    Iranian President Mahmoud's Ahmadinejad's mystical pre-occupation with the coming of a Shiite Islamic messiah figure – the Mahdi – is raising concerns that a nuclear-armed Islamic Republic could trigger the kind of global conflagration he envisions will set the stage for the end of the world.

    While Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has been making headlines lately by questioning whether the Holocaust actually happened, by suggesting Israel should be moved to Europe and by demanding the Jewish state be wiped off the face of the earth, his apocalyptic religious zealotry has received less attention.

    In a videotaped meeting with Ayatollah Javadi-Amoli in Tehran, Ahmadinejad discussed candidly a strange, paranormal experience he had while addressing the United Nations in New York last September.

    He recounts how he found himself bathed in light throughout the speech. But this wasn't the light directed at the podium by the U.N. and television cameras. It was, he said, a light from heaven.


    Ahmadinejad at the U.N.

    According to a transcript of his comments, obtained and translated by Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin, Ahmadinejad wasn't the only one who noticed the unearthly light. One of his aides brought it to his attention.

    The Iranian president recalled being told about it by one of his delegation: "When you began with the words ‘in the name of Allah,' I saw a light coming, surrounding you and protecting you to the end."

    Ahmadinejad agreed that he sensed the same thing.

    "On the last day when I was speaking, one of our group told me that when I started to say 'Bismillah Muhammad,' he saw a green light come from around me, and I was placed inside this aura," he says. "I felt it myself. I felt that the atmosphere suddenly changed, and for those 27 or 28 minutes, all the leaders of the world did not blink. When I say they didn't move an eyelid, I'm not exaggerating. They were looking as if a hand was holding them there, and had just opened their eyes – Alhamdulillah!"

    Ahmadinejad's "vision" at the U.N. is strangely reminiscent and alarmingly similar to statements he has made about his personal role in ushering in the return of the Shiite Muslim messiah.

    He sees his main mission, as he recounted in a Nov. 16 speech in Tehran, as to "pave the path for the glorious reappearance of Imam Mahdi, may Allah hasten his reappearance."

    According to Shiites, the 12th imam disappeared as a child in the year 941. When he returns, they believe, he will reign on earth for seven years, before bringing about a final judgment and the end of the world.

    Ahmadinejad is urging Iranians to prepare for the coming of the Mahdi by turning the country into a mighty and advanced Islamic society and by avoiding the corruption and excesses of the West.

    All Iran is buzzing about the Mahdi, the 12th imam and the role Iran and Ahmadinejad are playing in his anticipated return. There's a new messiah hotline. There are news agencies especially devoted to the latest developments.

    "People are anxious to know when and how will He rise; what they must do to receive this worldwide salvation," says Ali Lari, a cleric at the Bright Future Institute in Iran's religious center of Qom. "The timing is not clear, but the conditions are more specific," he adds. "There is a saying: 'When the students are ready, the teacher will come.'"

    For his part, Ahmadinejad is living up to at least part of his call to the faithful. According to reports, he lives so modestly that declared assets include only a 30-year-old car, an even older house and an empty bank account.

    Ahmadinejad and others in Iran are deadly serious about the imminent return of the 12th imam, who will prompt a global battle between good and evil (with striking parallels to biblical accounts of "Armageddon").

    An institute set up in 2004 for the study and dissemination of information about the Mahdi now has a staff of 160 and influence in the schools and children's magazines.

    In Iran, theologians say endtimes beliefs appeal to one-fifth of the population. And the Jamkaran mosque east of Qom, 60 miles south of Tehran, is where the link between devotees and the Mahdi is closest.

    Ahmadinejad's cabinet has given $17 million to Jamkaran.

    Shiite writings describe events surrounding the return of the Mahdi in apocalyptic terms. In one scenario, the forces of evil would come from Syria and Iraq and clash with forces of good from Iran. The battle would commence at Kufa – the Iraqi town near the holy city of Najaf.

    Even more controversial is Ahmadinejad's repeated invocation of Imam Mahdi, known as "the Savior of Times." According to Shiite tradition, Imam Mahdi will appear on Judgment Day to herald a truly just government.

    Missed by some observers in Ahmadinejad's speech at the U.N. was his call to the "mighty Lord" to hasten the emergence of "the promised one," the one who "will fill this world with justice and peace."

    Who stands in the Mahdi's way?

    A top priority of Ahmadinejad is "to challenge America, which is trying to impose itself as the final salvation of the human being, and insert its unjust state [in the region]," says Hamidreza Taraghi, head of the conservative Islamic Coalition Society.

    Taraghi says the U.S. is "trying to place itself as the new Mahdi." This may mean no peace with Iran, he adds, "unless America changes its hegemonic ... thinking, doesn't use nuclear weapons, [or] impose its will on other nations."
    Their not worried

    Tehran - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad speaking during a press conference in Tehran on Tuesday said that the United States would not be capable of harming Iran.

    'The US might still want to harm Iran but they are not capable of doing so,' Ahmadinejad said in response to questions on the possibility of a US military strike against Iran.
    LINK
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 06-15-2007 at 16:33.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  28. #28

    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Is Pakistan or Indonesia supplying men and arms that are killing our soldiers?
    Bloody hell ??????
    Gawain where the hell have you been for the last decade

    You have to have a loaded revolver and they have to believe you will use it. But even this logic doesnt work here.
    At last some sense , it doesn't work because the Iranians stiffed Bush and the neo-cons , and hey the Iranians didn't even have to get tortured to tell the idiots what they wanted to hear.
    They know full well that your revolver is badly damaged and cannot fire effectively .

  29. #29
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    To Gawain's credit, I think he equates Musharaff with 'Pakistan'. Gawain, you need to be made aware that the Taliban receive more arms and aid from elements within the Pakastani military than they do from Iran.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  30. #30
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iran’s War Against The United States

    Gawain where the hell have you been for the last decade
    Like Iran and now. I dont think so

    The pakistani government is sending troops there in civilian clothes. And the same for Indonesia?

    At last some sense , it doesn't work because the Iranians stiffed Bush and the neo-cons , and hey the Iranians didn't even have to get tortured to tell the idiots what they wanted to hear.
    They know full well that your revolver is badly damaged and cannot fire effectively .
    Many have made this mistake before. Our revolver isnt damaged its just that at the moment its only got one chamber charged. Its our will to use it that is seen as our weakness. Even in Iraq I and Im sure many of them see it as a half arse try.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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