r.e.s.p.e.c.t.

[LeftEyeNine]

Organizing a gay parade in an unnecessarily provocative environment (as IA described) is freedom of speech, but it is not something that lacks common sense, rationality and simply intelligence, right ?

I'd go for it if the area did not have issues anymore, there are no more religious conflicts or whatever. Then it would a good attempt to measure how far it can go.

No wonder why people think that depicting Muhammed in charicatures in an ugly way is a matter of freedom of speech. I've never seen a freedom which is not limited to its self-strains arising from common sense in order not to intrude others' freedoms.

Briefly, this act is an absolute idiocy.

[Whacker]

And your missing my point that this hurts them not helps them. Most people find this repulsive.

I'd really enjoy hearing where you are getting these 'facts' from.

[Kralizec]

A correction here to this logic. Jerusalem the city is NOT a holy place. There are several locations in the and around the city that are considered holy in some respects to the 3 religions in question, but the city itself is not one major shrine or temple. I saw no reference in the article of the path taking them directly past the Wailing Wall or anything along those lines. Even if it did, I doubt I'd care.

As for the view of this being "provacative", my thoughts are that I disagree. The city does indeed have multiple sites of religion significance to the 3 major monotheistic religions, so what? It sounds like they are making a point to do this in that city to demonstrate solidarity and determination. The whole "this is provacative and they are asking to be attacked" argument sounds awfully close to the "she got raped because she was dressing like that" one.

If you're a young woman wearing a short skirt, there are some neighbourhoods you had better not walk in alone at night. Call me a rape apoligist if you like, but that's a simple fact.
Large parts of Jerusalem are filled with fundamentalists (not only talking about muslims) who won't appreciate such a parade in "their" city, even if they pick their route carefully to steer away from these parts.

I hope the police will take efforts to protect them, 'cause they're going to need it.

[Odin]

And your missing my point that this hurts them not helps them. Most people find this repulsive. I would have the same opinion if say Howard Stern were to hold a parade with the kind of people he has on his show. You dont need to parade your sexuality about in the streets, I dont care what your sexual persuasion is.

I got your point, you just happen to be wrong. It hurts them perhaps in the eyes of those who subscribe to religion, yep no question. But to the those in the world who are moderate, this helps them because it causes discussion.

Sure it maybe in an unflatering light but press is press, and thats what Gay rights needs to progress thier adgenda.

This gets them that, and that helps them. The fact that its happening in this area, and around this holy area, I find has great entertainment value.

I might even send them a contribution.

[Geoffrey S]

Isn't the entire point of such parades to force people to see gays? These parades or various marches were originally held in a time when being such wasn't tolerated and were a brave act of openness. What would be the point of continuing the tradition only in places where it is tolerated, where it offends barely anyone nowadays?

[AntiochusIII]

If you're a young woman wearing a short skirt, there are some neighbourhoods you had better not walk in alone at night. Call me a rape apoligist if you like, but that's a simple fact.

She might be called an idiot for walking in a dangerous neighborhood and getting raped, even rightfully so, but anyone who goes further and say that she deserves it is a complete scum.

Same in this case. It isn't particularly a wise decision what's with Gaza in flames and the tensions as high as ever. But does that mean they deserve to be car-bombed? Of course not.

Besides, wasn't there one in Jerusalem already not too long ago...or was I mistaken?

I also think that Geoffrey S has a point: the Parade is provocative. That's the point. It's the same as the Civil Rights parades of old in this aspect: you offend and you create news, eventually you'll be accepted for who you are and the bigots can snuff it.

[Bar Kochba]

A correction here to this logic. Jerusalem the city is NOT a holy place. There are several locations in the and around the city that are considered holy in some respects to the 3 religions in question, but the city itself is not one major shrine or temple. I saw no reference in the article of the path taking them directly past the Wailing Wall or anything along those lines. Even if it did, I doubt I'd care.

I Would like to point out according to Judasim the whole city is holy Its called "Yerushalyim Ir Hokdesh" jersalem the holy city.

[Mikeus Caesar]

Why must they insist on holding a gay parade in one of the holiest places on Earth? They know it will piss off alot of people. And after all...

[Odin]

Why must they insist on holding a gay parade in one of the holiest places on Earth? They know it will piss off alot of people. And after all...

Press, Press, and more Press. The Gay rights movment is not local anymore the adgenda is being pressed all over the world. This parade happens every year(since 2001) "in one of the holiest places on earth".

This year it was billed as a "worldpride" event, these guys are political activist of the highest degree, and are decent tacticians at getting (you guessed it ) PRESS

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I got your point, you just happen to be wrong. It hurts them perhaps in the eyes of those who subscribe to religion, yep no question. But to the those in the world who are moderate, this helps them because it causes discussion.

Well seeing how most of the world is religious and straight these disscussions ususally come down to OMG did you see that .

Sure it maybe in an unflatering light but press is press, and thats what Gay rights needs to progress thier adgenda.

So you think all press is good press like in hollywood. And I think their agenda stinks and needs no advancing.

This gets them that, and that helps them.

Yeah by getting most people to say what a bunch of jerks. What the hell are they thinking.

If I were to stand on my front lawn dressed this way they would arrest me

[Odin]

Well seeing how most of the world is religious and straight these disscussions ususally come down to OMG did you see that .

Yes the "OMG" factor gets you in the papers.

So you think all press is good press like in hollywood. And I think their agenda stinks and needs no advancing.

In thier case yes, they dont believe thier adgenda is finished yet (percieved equal rights and all).

Yeah by getting most people to say what a bunch of jerks. What the hell are they thinking.

Perhaps, but there is always a clever fellow with a microphone at the scene ready to give them face time on TV.

You and I both know they want to be accepted into the mainstream, thats the overall goal, whats more mainstream then putting it in the face of Religion? (you know since most of the world is religous and straight?). The net effect? "want me to go home, give me what I want"

If I were to stand on my front lawn dressed this way they would arrest me

I dont think your really getting the full picture of the issue, what you need to do is take a deep breath, step up and use your logic (your a smart guy) and grab this thing about the waist and understand what the overall point is. After that, rear back, exhale and give a good thrust of tolerance and you'll begin to see the overall point is acceptance.

[KukriKhan]

Let's keep the 'hunks' in the hunks thread, and the hate images in the....erm... hate images thread(?) :) Please carry on, and be mindful of our readers who view the forum from work, or around little kids. Thanks.

[Husar]

After that, rear back, exhale and give a good thrust of tolerance and you'll begin to see the overall point is acceptance.

I'd accept and respect them more if they'd behave like normal people and wouldn't force me to look at naked people I don't want to see... So what about my rights?

The more they want to force me to tolerate them, the more I will hate them and they cannot force me to change my mind. It's about winning peoples' hearts and minds, remember? They won't win my heart or mind in such an offensive way...

[Odin]

[QUOTE=Husar]

I'd accept and respect them more if they'd behave like normal people and wouldn't force me to look at naked people I don't want to see... So what about my rights?

Im going to tread lightly, so dont take everything I say to harshly mate.

1. Behave like normal people? So when the jews have a parade in the "holy city" is that normal?

2. Who forced you? They didnt, the paper, news cast or message board you chose to view dispalyed this, thats your fault.

3. If you lived there Id make a concession on the your rights bit, that said I do believe this was challenged and the israli supreme court deemed the parade constitutional. Seems everyones rights were considered and upheld.

The more they want to force me to tolerate them, the more I will hate them and they cannot force me to change my mind.

Perhaps, but what would you do to make them go away exactly? And husar, hate is a strong concept.

It's about winning peoples' hearts and minds, remember? They won't win my heart or mind in such an offensive way...

I'll concede this one, with the cavaet that they do want you to talk about the issue. mission accomplished?

[Ronin]

So you think all press is good press like in hollywood. And I think their agenda stinks and needs no advancing.

well again....what you or I may think of their agenda matters absolutely squat....
the point is that if they are not breaking the law they should be alowed to publicize it.....and of course they are going to do it in the way that gets the most attention possible.

If I were to stand on my front lawn dressed this way they would arrest me

uhm...were do you live? because you might look into what rules the police are enforcing in your town...
I could legally stand in my lawn in a g-string speedo if I wanted....It´s not illegal.....the police might ask me politely to get dressed in order to avoid a scene...but they can´t arrest me for something like that.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You see Odin this is how most people view this

I'd accept and respect them more if they'd behave like normal people and wouldn't force me to look at naked people I don't want to see... So what about my rights?

The more they want to force me to tolerate them, the more I will hate them and they cannot force me to change my mind. It's about winning peoples' hearts and minds, remember? They won't win my heart or mind in such an offensive way...

OK here we go

1. Behave like normal people? So when the jews have a parade in the "holy city" is that normal?

Being gay is not normal. How is being a jew not normal? Because most people are not jewish?

2. Who forced you? They didnt, the paper, news cast or message board you chose to view dispalyed this, thats your fault.

What if its on your block?

3. If you lived there Id make a concession on the your rights bit, that said I do believe this was challenged and the israli supreme court deemed the parade constitutional. Seems everyones rights were considered and upheld.

So again if NAMBLA wants a parade they should have one?

Homosexuality should be tolerated not encouraged. Its a deviant form of sex. No better or worse than beastiality in my book. In fact give me a sheep any day. At least they tell no tales :)

[Andres]

They just want attention for their "cause".

If you find it distastefull, stupid, idiocy, ... best thing you can do is ignore it.

And if you happen to get stuck in some gay parade and you are in a situation where it becomes physical impossible to ignore it, behave like what you see is completely normal and not special at all. When some half nude guy starts dancing in front of you to get the attention he is seeking, just give him some money, saying: "Go buy a coat my friend, it's too cold to walk around dressed like that."

I'm 100 % for equal treatment for all human beings, but is it really necessary to put pink feathers in your and start shaking them on one of the most, if not the most, important place for several of the worlds' most important religions?

[Ronin]

Being gay is not normal. How is being a jew not normal? Because most people are not jewish?

I´d state that believing what the bible and the old testament and the koran say isn´t normal....but hey...to each his own.
if people want to behave abnormaly they should be allowed to as long as they don´t hurt anybody else.

What if its on your block?

what about when I go to the beach and I see the 300 pound 50 year old lady that had the brilliant idea to wear a bikini(shudders)?
You think I want to see that?....
I think that´s discusting.....so should I be allowed to stop this lady from comming to the beach?

So again if NAMBLA wants a parade they should have one?

Homosexuality should be tolerated not encouraged. Its a deviant form of sex. No better or worse than beastiality in my book. In fact give me a sheep any day. At least they tell no tales :)

bestiality and the NAMBLA s are nothing like homosexuality.....
in homosexual relations both partners consent to what they are doing....no matter what me may think of that choice......if the sheep can say that she´s in love with you and wants to get it on I say go for it!...but I kinda doubt that´s the case.

[Odin]

Being gay is not normal. How is being a jew not normal? Because most people are not jewish?

Being Jewish isnt normal because its a choice, being homosexual inst a choice its a condition.

What if its on your block?

Well I live in a mansion so I dont have to see the street, but I get your point, however as much as I might not like it they still have the right and the excersise of that right gives them press, thus its value.

Similar to a KKK rally, its about the press Gawain, come on.

So again if NAMBLA wants a parade they should have one?

If the supreme court of the host country says they have the right, then yep, unless you prefer it be decided on a case by case basis by the local sherriff? Okay, we'll use the constitution for a paint by numbers then, hows rainbow sound?

Homosexuality should be tolerated not encouraged. Its a deviant form of sex. No better or worse than beastiality in my book. In fact give me a sheep any day.

When you make absolute statements like this, with terms like deviant, and comparisson to beastiality you reveal what reads like fear, or at a minimum a closed mind. However I am hetrosexual myself, I dont encourage homosexuality, I just dont go out of my way to belittle segements of the population.

[Husar]

Im going to tread lightly, so dont take everything I say to harshly mate.

No offense taken, I usually wait for differing opinions, like I said somewhere else, I come here to learn as well.

1. Behave like normal people? So when the jews have a parade in the "holy city" is that normal?

As long as they don't run around half naked, yes. That's actually all I meant with normal in this case.

2. Who forced you? They didnt, the paper, news cast or message board you chose to view dispalyed this, thats your fault.

That's right to an extent, but the press tries their best to make me see it with posters and other ads everywhere. So indirectly they want to force me to see it. I thought that was the reason they want this to be in the press so that people see it? Maybe forcing isn't the right expression though, I give you that.

3. If you lived there Id make a concession on the your rights bit, that said I do believe this was challenged and the israli supreme court deemed the parade constitutional. Seems everyones rights were considered and upheld.

Most likely, sometimes I just add post-fillers I actually don't believe in myself, please forgive me.

Perhaps, but what would you do to make them go away exactly? And husar, hate is a strong concept.

Hate is indeed a strong concept and I don't really hate them anyway.
I just think they're completely overreacting and that there are less offensive ways to get acceptance, might take a bit longer but also keeps aggression levels of others lower.

I'll concede this one, with the cavaet that they do want you to talk about the issue. mission accomplished?

I've been thinking about gays before without their stupid parade and when I saw gays in the place I work out I came to the conclusion that I don't mind them being there and will treat them like anyone else. But they weren't dancing around half naked, that would certainly have lead me to a different conclusion.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Being Jewish isnt normal because its a choice, being homosexual inst a choice its a condition.

Your Jewish if your mother is Jewish. Its not a choice.

If the supreme court of the host country says they have the right, then yep, unless you prefer it be decided on a case by case basis by the local sherriff? Okay, we'll use the constitution for a paint by numbers then, hows rainbow sound?

SCOTUS has made many bad calls in the past. that dont make it right.

When you make absolute statements like this, with terms like deviant, and comparisson to beastiality you reveal what reads like fear, or at a minimum a closed mind. However I am hetrosexual myself, I dont encourage homosexuality, I just dont go out of my way to belittle segements of the population.

I have no fear. You want to screw a cow be my guest. it dont phase me in the least. But dont go around telling me its normal. Its not why you were given reproductive organs. Im not belittling anyone. Different strokes for different folks I always say.

[Odin]

That's right to an extent, but the press tries their best to make me see it with posters and other ads everywhere. So indirectly they want to force me to see it. I thought that was the reason they want this to be in the press so that people see it? Maybe forcing isn't the right expression though, I give you that.

Yes they want you to see it, but you have to look.

I just think they're completely overreacting and that there are less offensive ways to get acceptance, might take a bit longer but also keeps aggression levels of others lower.

On this we agree.

[Andres]

I agree with Husar. It's not the fact that they are gay that is disturbing, but the way how they chose to express their gay-ness by running and dancing around half (and sometimes completely, unless you consider bodypaint = clothes) naked.

And as if that's not enough, they plan to do it in a holy city of all places.

In this case, it's disrespectful towards different important religions. It's bad taste and, considering the present political situation in the area involved, a sign of a complete lack of common sense.

[Odin]

Your Jewish if your mother is Jewish. Its not a choice.

Is it an ethnic group, or someone who practices Judaism? I say the later, but thats a whole other topic.

SCOTUS has made many bad calls in the past. that dont make it right.

No but it makes it legal.

I have no fear. You want to screw a cow be my guest. it dont phase me in the least. But dont go around telling me its normal. Its not why you were given reproductive organs. Im not belittling anyone. Different strokes for different folks I always say.

Okay Gawain, i wont tell you its being normal.

[Odin]

I agree with Husar. It's not the fact that they are gay that is disturbing, but the way how they chose to express their gay-ness by running and dancing around half (and sometimes completely, unless you consider bodypaint = clothes) naked.

And as if that's not enough, they plan to do it in a holy city of all places.

In this case, it's disrespectful towards different important religions. It's bad taste and, considering the present political situation in the area involved, a sign of a complete lack of common sense.

I'm about done with this thread as i have given my 2 cents and made my points. Let me say in sentiment your right, but thier intent isnt to display normal behavior or be respectful, thier intent is to gain press.

these are very savvy people with a political adgenda, if you believe this as fact then its clear why they are in a percieved holy city.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Is it an ethnic group, or someone who practices Judaism? I say the later, but thats a whole other topic.

Is there any doubt its an ethnic group? Does the fact that people from other nations have joined it change that?

No but it makes it legal.

But that doesnt refute my point that it may be wrong.

Okay Gawain, i wont tell you its being normal.

What?

Andres pretty much covers my thoughts on the matter.

[Odin]

Is there any doubt its an ethnic group? Does the fact that people from other nations have joined it change that?

Do they practice judaism?

But that doesnt refute my point that it may be wrong.

Who gets to decide that? You? God? Jews? Christians? Homosexuals?

Right and wrong is a concept not universally applied.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Do they practice judaism?

Who? One more time. If your mother is Jewish you are Jewish. Whether or not you practice Judaism is irrelevant.

Who gets to decide that? You? God? Jews? Christians? Homosexuals?

Right and wrong is a concept not universally applied.

Why of course me. No one else really matters do they?

[Odin]

Who?

Does the fact that people from other nations have joined it change that?

these people you mentioned in a prior post, did thier moms convert after they joined as well?

Why of course me. No one else really matters do they?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

these people you mentioned in a prior post, did thier moms convert after they joined as well?

No. I didnt say that to be a Jew your mother has to be Jewish now did I? These people must pass a test and part of that test is practicing Judaism. But if your mother is Jewish your Jewish.