Depressed - advice welcome

[dusherwo]

I've been reading the forum for some time. I installed M2TW around when it came out, didn't spend much time on it, had to reinstall more recently.

I like many things about it. But....

I just get very discouraged by not doing well. I've played England, the Moors, Venice, Poland, Byzantium. I never get anywhere near the victory conditions. Money is always tight. I can normally expand quite well but then everybody else jumps on me and I don't have enough resources to deal with them.

With MTW1 I was able to hit the trade very hard, build up lots of cash, then build up armies to deal with whoever gave me a hard time. Not every game but mostly.

I've tried the faraway merchants (Timbuktu etc) with MT2W and they help, but not enough.

I play on Easy/Easy. This does make the battles quite achievable but really I am more interested in the strategy side.

Can people suggest an approach (and/or a people) which will restore my confidence?

[FactionHeir]

I think you will find the guides section of the ORG quite helpful in that case.

[dusherwo]

I've read most of them (should have mentioned that). Haven't found a reliable approach or faction so far. The writeup of Poland looked good. That was probably my most promising campaign so far but the HRE were too strong to eliminate, Denmark and Hungary kept giving me a hard time, then along came the Mongols (as in history, I accept). I think the key is money - I haven't so far found a reproducible way (or faction) where money is not a problem.

[Quintus.JC]

What about England, I played England on my first ever campaign in M/M and found it rather easy, bear in mind that am experienced in RTW beforehand. Anyway if you want I could you gave you a layout of my opening moves for England, that faction is possiblity the most secure on the map.

[El Jojo]

As Quintus wrote, England is a good choice. You should avoid all the central powers (HRE, Poland, Hungary, etc.) because you can get attacked from all sides, as you experienced with Poland.

As England, you could try to sell your mainland city (to France or to HRE if you want to mess things up) to concentrate on the british isles, eliminate the scots and conquer all the rebels there. Then you'll have a good position to play with the economic system and see what you missed.
Once you make enough money start to build an invasion force, see how that increase your expenses, don't make too big of an army. And then invade Scandinavia, normally you will only fight Denmark there.
Go on this way, carefully picking your opponents, trying to invade places where you won't have to fight a two or three fronts war.
And then of course you can try to present here your opening moves, as said, so that you have a kind of "step-by-step" guide.

[Freddybear]

Try putting a higher priority on building up your home-base economy in the early game. Build *all* the economic buildings that you can build in each of your towns. Ports, markets and mines and their upgrades should all be high on your list.

And specialize your castles on just one line of military units each, at least at first. For example as England, build the archery series (longbows!) in Nottingham and the drill field series (billmen, etc) in Caen. Each time your castle expands, the upgrade for its military building should be the first thing you build there.

And don't overdo the size of your armies before you've completed your economic buildup. Nothing can stall out your economy like too many Mailed Knights.

By the time you get the whole of the british isles in your hands, you should be raking in several thousand florins profit per turn, and then you can afford to go crazy on your enemies.

[Proserpine]

I've been reading the forum for some time. I installed M2TW around when it came out, didn't spend much time on it, had to reinstall more recently.

I like many things about it. But....

I just get very discouraged by not doing well. I've played England, the Moors, Venice, Poland, Byzantium. I never get anywhere near the victory conditions. Money is always tight. I can normally expand quite well but then everybody else jumps on me and I don't have enough resources to deal with them.

With MTW1 I was able to hit the trade very hard, build up lots of cash, then build up armies to deal with whoever gave me a hard time. Not every game but mostly.

I've tried the faraway merchants (Timbuktu etc) with MT2W and they help, but not enough.

I play on Easy/Easy. This does make the battles quite achievable but really I am more interested in the strategy side.

Can people suggest an approach (and/or a people) which will restore my confidence?

I feel your pain, dushwo. I have spent months (to the - to put it mildly - bemusement of of my partner) on this game, and before that on MTW1. Reading these forums has helped with both, but you have to put it into practice, and that can be really hard, believe me I know. I, too, had money coming out of my ears in MTW1 (1.5 million in the bank in one game), but it always seemed to be harder to come by in MTW2. I found the battles in MTW2 mostly unsatifying, the AI factions generally more advanced and the pope hated me, while everyone ganged up on me if I got strong. I never saw the new world or the mongols/timurids. However, I believe I am starting to make a few breakthroughs. I started on M/M, I now play on M/H. Money is no longer so tight (though not overflowing), I have had some epic battles, found (and conquered) the new world and defeated both Mongols and Timurids in battle. In my current game, the last 2 popes were mine.

I would like to suggest the following. Please note, I have yet to acheive full victory in the long campaign (I am currently trying Spain). Concentrate on specific improvements, don't try to build everything everywhere. Economy then military. Move fast in the early stages to capture available rebel settlements (As England you want to be first to York, Caernarvon and Dublin, as Spain it is Zaragosa and Valencia). Watch out for your neighbours, alliance or no, they will attack - when they do, take them down. Practice battle technique, as a human you will usuall have more balanced forces and better control than the AI. Use classic miltary strategy - fire and movement, massed artillery, whatever works - as before bridges are your friend! You can outthink the AI, 99 times out of a hundred. Read these threads! Read the AARs, huge source of good ideas. Be flexible, be cunning. Get loads of priests out converting and spies in (your) frontline settlements as a defence. Use auto-resolve only if the odds are overwhelmingly in your favour.

Finally, personally I find the lack of varied goals a bit of a bore. I set my own (a lot of people here do). I chose not to accept adoptions/man of the hour, so the family must survive. I sack only if a general is killed in an assault, or if the faction is not co-religionist. I don't use assassins. I want to be the Number 1 faction, my best so far is 32 provinces (no Jerusalem though).

Lastly, I don't think you will find the step to, say M/M very difficult.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on! It would be great if you posted some situation reports, then some of the great players (not me) on these boards will definitely help you out. I just love to read about other peoples games.

[dusherwo]

Thanks to all posters for advice and support. Looks like I made the wrong move by playing the 'unlocked' factions too early. I'm UK based and a travel nut (worked in Egypt quite a bit in the last 12 months) so have a taste for the exotic. So back to the English it is.

[part_time_player]

Practice some custom battles, the better you get the less troops you will feel you need when conquering in the campaign, and the less troops you have to build/maintain the more money you have left over for buildings etc.

[TheLastPrivate]

If money is tight then you need to reduce your army upkeep by reducing the size and investing that money into profitable cities. Some cities aren't worth the investment, some cities return a lot more. look for good trade connections/mines.

[The New Che Guevara]

I've started a campaign as the English (after modding the game so the turns are monthly) and ended up at war with the Danes and took Scandinavia before attacking france,. Instead, my council asked me to take bordeaux, but portugal took it. Then the iberian christians started attacking me, hence I ended up taking Leon and destroying them. France went to war with me, I took some of their provinces and offered a ceasefire. meanwhile russia came into the picture with some blockading. I took novgorod after some failed assaults. Eventually, the catholic factions ended up disspearing slowly one by one, got excommunicated three times, and now I have three quarters of the map. Egypt, Hungary, The Papacy and the Mongols are all that's left. I have way over 3.5 million florins and about to attack egypt. I also removed sicily attacking Cagliari with and elite force of 2 Ret. Longbow, 1 Yeoman Longbow, 3 english knights and 2 armoured swordsmen. I ended up shooting the army off the field. I amazed myself.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Advice from an extremely aggressive player:

My personal strategies and tactics may not help someone who wants to roleplay or is uncertain of his abilities. So I am modifying them to suit someone who needs a confidence boost.




1. Pick your fights.

You can't tell the rest of the world not to declare war on you. Your neighbors will eventually declare war on you. You must be prepared to defend against this threat, and limiting the number of enemies you fight at once is your top priority. There's a lot of other nations out there.

As a less experienced player, you may not want to declare war on your largest neighbor first. So pacify them. Send a diplomat to make trade rights, and offer them an incentive to remain at peace with you. Send them 100 (or 200, if that doesn't work) gold per turn for 100 turns. Cancel that later when you feel comfortable. The big bad neighbor won't attack you, especially if you manage an alliance and youre also giving them tribute, most of the time. Unless you own a city that that faction always wants to capture (mission-related, most likely) then they might not attack you.

They will be less likely to attack you if you have a garrison in your border cities. Even peasants and peasant archers are a cheap, and somewhat effective in battle, deterrent. Now, focus on your other neighbors.

Keep a spy on any undefended border to watch for invaders. Even put a spy on a ship for added line of sight, and keep an eye on the undefended ocean. Be ready to pull your main armies back or recruit a huge defensive force at a moment's notice.

2. Watch your budget, and begin your expansion.

Oh, you can try to win the economic war by peaceful means, but in the end it comes down to armies on the ground. You need to be able to defend yourself, yes, but you need to eventually kill your invader. That means offensive power as well.

In my opinion, you need to prioritize what you build. If you build a grain exchange in a town which has little population and no trading partners, you're wasting your money for a gain of... what, 12 florins per turn? Not even worth it.

Ports, on the other hand, provide sea trade, which works just as well, and allows you to build ships, which are a military goal. Two for one. Largest cities first, then largest castles, build ports sooner than later.

Farms? Most factions get the same tiny bonus from a farm that they get from having good trade or a chivalrous governor. If you raise population growth high enough, you even get a public order bonus, which is a two-for-one idea. The higher your population, the higher the trade a place can provide, which means more taxes, which means more and better armies. Raise population. Farms aren't always the first and best way to do that. Chivalrous governors are by far the best, followed by high trade and some buildings affect factions' growth. Brothels sometimes give you a growth bonus, but also provide you with spies. Better than farms. Farms should be last on your list, because all they do is provide a small boost to growth, and nothing else.

Instead of fully upgrading your most worthless provinces, realize that your neighbors possess very good provinces. Their capitals, castles, and trade centers... Capturing these places doubles the size of your economy, eliminates or weakens an enemy, and gives your core provinces more breathing room in case of invasion. You also get more things you could sell off in an emergency, and a larger population to tax. Sacking cities also gives you insane boosts in income, especially if you're super-aggressive. But you dont even need to sack cities, just keep expanding until you're very powerful, or keep expanding until you win the game. Early expansion helps.

Your budget must allow for more income than expenses. If you have troops just sitting at home playing defense, they are draining your budget. You can recruit a defensive army later, saving you money every turn. Your inner provinces dont need anyone except militia or peasants to keep order, and very few of those. Don't kill your budget defending against an attack which may never come, and when it does you have ample time to prepare and fight back. Save cash, disband what isn't being used for critical defense of your outermost provinces on your most hostile borders, or what isn't going to be used to assault and defeat a faction.

Mercenaries should only be used for offense. They are too expensive to keep, and eventually you will have better troops of your own. Use them as meat shields for short offensives, then disband them or kill them off in glorious battle.

Offensive armies need not be the best in the game. Just make sure you have a General with high command, chivalry, dread, or morale, a bunch of meat soldiers (cheap infantry), and a tactical edge. For most field battles, that's horsemen. For taking settlements, you need artillery and archers. You could advance ahead with one army that specifically deals with field battles (large amounts of infantry, cavalry, and a powerful general) and one that lags behind with the heavy seige equipment, carrying catapults, large amounts of archers, some heavier infantry, and any general with good morale. (Chivalry works best for this)

Your troops do not need to be of better quality unless the enemy is more numerous. Try to be more numerous yourself later on... for the opening assaults, just have a good battle plan and bring enough men to win the battle.

Spam a larger army of cheap infantry, some cavalry, and a good general, and make your opening attack on an enemy faction. Don't overextend yourself, allow the enemy to come to you. If you beseige an important settlement, even if it has large amounts of enemy troops inside, that cuts off their trade and slowly drains the army inside. If the enemy sallies out, keep your general behind your infantry and try to rout them quickly with repeated cavalry charges from the wings. Strike before the enemy can organize outside their settlement.

Win your first battles and try not to lose too many troops. Capture a settlement belonging to your enemy and push up some defensive troops from within your empire. Recover if you took heavy losses, pillage the settlement or destroy useless items inside (ballista ranges that you no longer need, trade buildings for tiny settlements, armor shops which are redundant and in provinces you wont need for training purposes...) for cash if you need them.

Now, you have made forward progress against an enemy you intend to destroy. Don't let your invasion forces be destroyed, because they are acting not only as invaders, but also as your front line of defense against that faction. Aggressive defense. Saves money and expands your population and trade. In chess, the best move is the one which accomplishes the most things, and the most important things. Do the same here... dont settle for a good move when a great move is even better.

Once you expand a little, you may have some core provinces which require few defenses. Push any defenders towards your front line. Save money by not wasting troops. Make sure the total expense for your army is not greater than your income, and have some left over for recruitment or buildings.

3. Prioritize your economy

Once you have captured larger castles and cities, focus on improving those areas. Let your minor provinces develop on their own or send a high chivalry general to boost growth. Get your largest provinces the ports, grain exchanges, and recruitment facilities you need. Think about your next conquest, make sure your borders are defended, and maybe relax for a bit. Disband useless mercenaries, armies that aren't being used and have low experience, are far from your next conquest, etc... balance your budget such that you can really boost profits and reduce expenses. if you aren't at war, keep it that way for a while, and build your economy and cash reserves. Spy on your enemies for undefended borders and few standing armies, and strike them when you are done wasting time.

4. Build a real army.

Now, you should have a good castle with the proper armour shops, recruitment facilities, and cities with proper militia recruitment buildings and agent recruitment buildings to begin churning out your war machines.

Militiamen with silver or gold armour, spammed in great quantity, form a very large, very reliable, very cheap, very expendable, and very easy to regenerate invasion force. Form large armies out of militia infantry and militia bows or crossbows, unless you have castle grade forces which are far superior.

Get the best dang cavalry you can recruit, and lots of them. Especially if they are cheap. Leather or chain armour on your cheapest horses can do quite well.

Get some large groups of long range, flaming archers, and lots of artillery, and Castle grade infantry, and form a stack which specifically attacks huge settlements with large garrisons. Add some heavy cavalry and you have your large settlement attack group.

Lead this group with your field unit, a seperate stack dedicated to field battles. Go for mostly cavalry, especially same-type cavalry so they can regroup into fully powered units as they take casualties, and have some great general command them. Keep them light, mobile, powerful, and numerous. Use this to engage enemy forces which will kill your settlement attacker stack easily in the field, or to stand next to your settlement stack during seiges to defend them from seige relief forces suited to killing archers and artillery.

Use the archers, artillery, and heavy infantry to bombard, weaken, and reduce the numbers of heavy infantry and archers in the settlement. Use archers to take out mounted units, spearmen as well, and archers and heavy infantry to take out the enemy infantry. Don't use mounted units except if you're like me and you know how to steal settlements with horses due to AI incompetence, and also except if the enemy sallies and you have some to prevent cavalry from charging your infantry. Engage cavalry with spearmen after disrupting their charges.

Keep your real professional army alive and well with ships carrying reinforcements or reinforcements hopping from forts to castles en route to your front line. Replenish your losses and send more top generals in case you lose one or two. Send more artillery, archers, horses, and infantry. Spam your most popular and favoured unit, even if it isnt the best one you can recruit, until you overwhelm the enemy's defenses and spread your empire even further out.

5. Build a real Empire

Owning all of France is not enough. Time to take over the world.

Wait as long as your heart desires. Build your economy, disband useless armies, don't waste them in your core provinces, get rid of mercenaries, and go into a kind of vigilant hibernation unless you have invaders at your gates. Build the best recruitment facilities in the game, and lots of them, and have your best castle and best city become your great, massive, armourer.

Have your other castles and cities mass produce cavalry, infantry, archers, and so forth, then send them to your best cities to be fitted with armour. Make sure your artillery ranges are not being produced or wasted far from the front lines. Produce them near large port cities, near the center of the map, and be sure to have drillmaster generals control them on cleared roads until you can get to a ship or your final destination.

You can create your dream army, and be very uptight about gaining experience, keeping casualties low, and replacing lost troops, until all your battles look the same. Super army versus same old enemy. How boring... but some like to roleplay one specific general, so go for it.

As for myself, I've long since conquered the world by this stage, but if I had not, I would just continue to spam an ever-growing standing army and relentlessly ship them off to war until the enemy was totally annihilated, gaining ground, ransoming or executing prisoners, gaining experience, destroying targets, sacking cities, destroying infrastructure, and growing in population and economic strength the entire time.

Relentless. Heartless. Soulless. Endless. Aggression.

Until nothing stands but your own empire. Once you have done this for the first time, the formula only needs to be modified slightly per the geography and units of your particular fashion, until you know how to dominate the AI like a hellish demon on steroids.

Then, you will never be without confidence in your game.

[Carlos Matthews]

What remarkable advice that is Askthepizzaguy, before now I have found that elite players keep their tactics to themselves but you have really bared all.

Relentless. Heartless. Soulless. Endless. Aggression. ... And what a remarkable line.

Even though that advice is aimed directly to the begginner it is good advice for everyone.