Diplomacy is broken

[Corka]

It might be a bit better than in Rome, but I swear diplomacy in Medieval is just plain broken. I am talking about version 1.2 so you know. The AI controlled nations of Europe are moronic. The only way to keep them peaceful is to constantly feed them gold. It doesn't matter that you are the strongest military power in the world, and that they are the weakest.

Lets give an example. I decided to give Egypt a go on a long campaign M/M with diplomacy in mind. I was happy to find so many rebel provinces nearby, and I managed to secure quite a number of them by taking advantage of Jihad. I come in contact with the Turks and Byzantines. I get trade rights and alliances with both, and they were happily content with one another as well. I decide to sit tight with the provinces I captured in my little corner of the world, building up my cities and increasing my treasurey. To keep things amiable, I was paying 400 gold a turn to both byzantines and turks.

Then Turkey decides to be a moron and blockades one of my ports. WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS? If you wanted to evilly betray me, why not launch a surprise army against my cities? So I immediately go to my diplomat in Turkey, and get him to try and get a ceasefire. Wait, its 'very demanding'? You turned down my entire treasury of 10k florins for a ceasefire? Fine. Be an idiot. I invade, take half their territory, and ask if they want a ceasefire now that its clear they really don't have the advantage. What? You refuse? Okay, what if I offer you lots of money and one of your cities back? ..... No? So I let them sit there with their two remaining cities, while feeding them gold to make them happier with me (even though we were at war, I'm quite the generous fellow hey?). Then the pope declares a crusade on Antioch. England, France, Poland, Denmark, and Spain all join. I'm now at war with /all/ of them and I had yet to see a single one. The only crusading army that ended up arriving was Poland, with only 4 units in it.

I kick them out, and go back to trying to get Turkey to like me. I got relations up to reasonable, even though we were at war. I look at my repuation.... somehow I'm very untrustworthy?? Even though I've been doing everything in my power to be a nice guy? Giving money to nations i'm at war with, always releasing prisoners... yet I'm very untrustworthy. I check what it takes just to get a ceasefire with the Turks- all my gold, and about half of my kingdom. What?? For 4 turns of peace which they would likely break ANYWAY? Seeing it seems impossible to resolve friendship with them, I conquer them.

I notice then that Hungary takes Constantinople. Not with a particularly large army mind, and Byzantine has a full stack nearby. So what do they do with it? They march it into /my lands and lay siege to one of my cities/. Their ally. The strongest empire in the world, who has been feeding them gold every turn since they first met. When they just lost their capital and could have taken it back instead. Then its the same story- Byzantine refuses for a ceasefire, relations plummet, and I have to take their territory. Allying with the catholics seems impossible now, in fact theres no ceasefire option for any of the nations that took part in the crusade. Russia and the Moors both refuse to ally with me for some unknown reason, even though I started feeding them gold and we share the same enemies. And why should I have to constantly gift all neighboring nations anyway? Its not like they are giving me a dime, and they usually turn on me regardless.

Diplomacy in M2:TW sucks.

[Sheogorath]

<snip> ~sapi

[Corka]

you can't intimidate your opponents into doing what you want either. Creating a large army and killing everyone isn't really diplomacy at all.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Diplomacy may work partially only if you have Reliable or Very reliable rep and that is simply not possible as a Islamic faction.

[Zarky]

If you would have allied Moors in start and feed them gold, they probably would have stayed in your side when others attack (their other allies maybe)
But later on in the game all Islamic Factions fight pretty much alone, and thank Allah they&#180;re capable of doing that (Turks maybe not when Mongols and Timurids come, but player would manage it)

[CMcMahon]

Who needs diplomacy when you're trying to dominate Europe, anyway? Kill, kill, kill.

[Durallan]

BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Seriously, you registered an account JUST to make THIS post? On a topic which has been adressed REPEATEDLY throughout the course of the forum?
Search moar, n00b.

In regards to diplomacy, I find that the best sort involves lots of men with swords on horses. Or cannons.
I believe the Devil's Dictionary defines 'Cannon' as "An instrument for the rectification of borders," as fine a definition as any I've heard. Consider well the applicatiation of copious amounts of steel and gunpowder to your problem, followed by a handy dose of slaughter and maybe a bit of tourture here and there.
Remember, manical laughter is satisfying, but it leaves you vulnerable to erstwhile heros who manage to slip past your outer guards. ALWAYS carry a pistol crossbow, just in case you need to shoot some sword wielding punk in the head.

And finally, I have this to say:
in b4 lock

I don't know whether you have woken up on the wrong side of the bed or something but there is absolutely no reason to be this rude to a newb to the forums, his posts aren't in capitals they aren't full of hate spiel and they ask why is diplomacy so stupid? which is a fair question. With a post like that it wouldn't surprise me if it got locked.

@ Corka I suggest you read this thread,
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87816
it may give you some answers as to why you are very untrustworthy, also if you really don't like the way the alliances work at the moment you can PM me and I will send you a little fix to the ai diplomacy file which will make the ai more trusting of you, although that won't fix your global standing, allies shouldn't go against you so easily.

[Yun Dog]

your preaching to the choir Corka

what I want to know is how the guys that posted how much diplomacy had improved with v1.2 can sleep at night because it is clear to me that very little has changed in the AIs behaviour when it comes to diplomacy

they may consider that the AI piece meal attacking you in 5 turns instead of 4 is an improvement - I do not

and for the 'its TOTAL war" sayers - yeh your right and soon it'll have progressed to being an AOE3beta - YAY

if thats the case why not turf diplomacy all together and religions and just have a series of meaningless battles without context

then we could spam resource collectors and tank rush

oh! thats what the games like now isnt it

[Noir]

Welcome to the .org Corka,

I've read/heard that some modifications particularly tweaked that aspect of the game to be much better than as it stands in vanilla. It might help a lot to play with a mod in any case. You can find mods here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=172

and at the total war centre.

Many Thanks

Noir

[TinCow]

Whether you agree with the OP or not, there is no reason to use personal attacks. Please keep this thread civil.

[Didz]

Then Turkey decides to be a moron and blockades one of my ports. WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS? If you wanted to evilly betray me, why not launch a surprise army against my cities?

I'm convinced that this is a consequence of the mission system overriding the AI. Certainly, when playing as a Catholic faction you will frequently get Papal missions to blockade ports for one turn in return for a reward and these ports are often owned by a faction that you are neutral or even allied with just because they annoyed the Pope. Its not so clear why when playing Egypt your ports would be targetted by missions but that still seems to be the most likely cause.

BTW: I have frequently found that if you immediately offer the blockading faction a cease fire it will accept willingly and simply withdraw its fleet. Suggesting that having earnt its reward it is only too willing to go back to its AI controlled strategy.

I'm surprised that this would not work with Turkey if they blockaded your port from a status of ally, but clearly for some reason they were very unhappy with you over something. Did you attack their blockading fleet?

I notice then that Hungary takes Constantinople. Not with a particularly large army mind, and Byzantine has a full stack nearby. So what do they do with it? They march it into /my lands and lay siege to one of my cities/. Their ally.

I must admit I'm surprised that you are getting this much aggression from the strategic AI on Medium Campaign setting, but then I've never played Egypt so I don't know if its a factional variant.

I found the AI behaved like this on VH campaign mode which was the main reason I went back to Medium. I can understand the fact that the Catholic actions would become intransigent given the Papal demands for crusades and the fact that you occupy the holyland but that doesn't explain why the Moors and Turks are being so hostile.

I haven't had that problem playing Turkey and I never give anyone money except the Pope when I'm playing Catholic. Are you sure your playing on Medium?

[Kobal2fr]

As Egypt, you have to wipe the Turks to win. They know this. Is that such a big surprise that they don't really trust you ? Don't expect people you need to kill, or who need to kill you to be your bestest friends ever.

As to why Hungary attacked you... well, you *are* a filthy heretic . And a powerfull filthy heretic to boot. No one likes number 1.

EDIT : Also, consider this : you most likely have taken Jerusalem by now. Everybody, their mothers and their dog want, nay, NEED Jerusalem to win. Capturing it AND being a filthy heretic is just asking for pain.

@Didz : he took half their cities. That might piss them off a smidgen

[Didz]

@kobal2fr
I thought he only did that after they refused to ally with him.

Do the Short Campaign goals really influence the behaviour of the AI in the full campaign?

Finally, my understanding was that Corka is complaining about the fact that the Byzantines preferred to attack him rather than defend or retake Constantinople with their massive army, not that the Hungarians captured Constantinople. That does seem a bit odd particularly as the Byzantine reaction is not limited by papal edict.

I also wonder if there is a clue to the behaviour of the AI in the fact that Corker admits to using Jihad's to capture rebel states. It strikes me that constantly using Jihads or Crusades to capture settlements and then repeatedly beating the other factions to acheiving the rewards is going to be pretty annoying for the other factions involved. But I have no evidence that this is a fact in the game.

[Kobal2fr]

@kobal2fr
I thought he only did that after they refused to ally with him.

Do the Short Campaign goals really influence the behaviour of the AI in the full campaign?

Yup. Almost all "want peace" lines in the AI file have AND IS NOT SHADOW FACTION as a prerequisite. Also, factions will never offer their shadow factions to become their vassals, nor will they accept to become the vassal of their shadows. This leads me to assume shadow factions are the ones you need to off in a short campaign.

[Didz]

Yup. Almost all "want peace" lines in the AI file have AND IS NOT SHADOW FACTION as a prerequisite. Also, factions will never offer their shadow factions to become their vassals, nor will they accept to become the vassal of their shadows. This leads me to assume shadow factions are the ones you need to off in a short campaign.

My question was whether this is also true of a Long Campaign, where no shadow factions are specified.

[madalchemist]

I think the problem is the lack of sense of the "tall poppy" effect (in short, the system who makes AI factions improve their standing with little facions and worsen it with larger factions, every turn).

I'm with those who accuse it of being irrealistic: if your neighbour is thrice your size, army and economy, how in the Nine Hells would you have it as an enemy instead of having it as a trusted ally (or liege lord)?

There's no way in real world you'd attack him. And this policy is what in history all the nations did.

No need to speak about it further as it has been debated to death, but such is the "tall poppy" system (but Diplomacy Mod removes it).

[Kobal2fr]

I assume so - after all, the descr_sm_faction file or whatever it is that says "this faction is that shadow" is the same no matter what campaign type you select. Besides, short-campaign target factions are set as they are because they're the most likely/easy/immediate road to expansion for your own and it's a safe bet you'll be wanting to run them through first in a long campaign as well, so I really don't see why a dev. would disable them.

[Corka]

It would be pretty dehibilitating if it was made so the only other two islamic factions are extra likely to backstab and invade you. The Catholic factions sure aren't friendly, so that leaves the Byzantines and the Rus. Having a read up on how reputation works, it would seem that the crusades probably made my reputation tank. The problem with getting to either of them early is that well, they are quite a way aways. Actually, I have the suspicion that the crusade against me is still ongoing which might explain why I don't even have the option for a ceasefire. Is there a time limit? Do I have to wait until all crusading armies reach me? What if one of them manages to get lost along the way, but keeps it populated with mercs?

I honestly don't know why Byzantine launched that full stack against me as soon as Constantinople fell. Maybe they already had it prepped to go against me, and went ahead despite the Hungarian incursion. The garrison wasn't particularly strong, but it was stronger than the Hungarian force at Constantinople- Byzantine had left only 2 units defending it, and were conquered by 3 Hungarian units.

The AI must treat the player faction differently from its AI neighbours. Since they aren't coining out to each other, and attack their allies and the like, you'd think Europe would be in utter anarchy and every nation would be at war with one another.

[Kraggenmor]

Diplomacy would need to exist in the game, before it could be broken.

[diotavelli]

It might be a bit better than in Rome, but I swear diplomacy in Medieval is just plain broken. I am talking about version 1.2 so you know. The AI controlled nations of Europe are moronic. The only way to keep them peaceful is to constantly feed them gold. It doesn't matter that you are the strongest military power in the world, and that they are the weakest.

I decided to give Egypt a go on a long campaign M/M with diplomacy in mind. .......Then Turkey decides to be a moron and blockades one of my ports. WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS? .......I invade, take half their territory, and ask if they want a ceasefire now that its clear they really don't have the advantage. .......Then the pope declares a crusade on Antioch. England, France, Poland, Denmark, and Spain all join. I'm now at war with /all/ of them .......I look at my repuation.... somehow I'm very untrustworthy?? Even though I've been doing everything in my power to be a nice guy? Giving money to nations i'm at war with, always releasing prisoners... yet I'm very untrustworthy. .......Then its the same story- Byzantine refuses for a ceasefire, relations plummet, and I have to take their territory. ......Russia and the Moors both refuse to ally with me for some unknown reason, even though I started feeding them gold and we share the same enemies.

Diplomacy in M2:TW sucks.

There's two issues here, as I see it. The first is seemingly senseless and/or random port blockades by the AI. This is what tripped you up in the first place: the AI doesn't necessarily need to have any ill-intent towards you to blockade one of your ports, so this can happen even when you're playing the good guy. This is what happened here.

The second issue is maintaining a trustworthy reputation whilst being at war. The game is designed to make this very difficult. Essentially, every turn you're at war, your reputation drops. The more your reputation drops, the more inclined other factions will be to avoid allying with you and to think of attacking you. There are two routes around this.

The first is to become good at blitzkrieg and make sure every war you get dragged into finishes very quickly; however, if the faction you're fighting has lots of allies, you'll struggle to maintain a trustworthy relationship (they'll still keep their alliance with a destroyed faction, for some reason). The second is to avoid wars - but as you've shown, that's easier said than done.

Does this mean diplomacy is 'broken'? That depends on what you think a working diplomatic engine should offer. I get the impression that some people would like an engine that allows them to maintain great relationships with everyone when they want to but also allows them to go on the rampage when they feel like it too. I can't see how that can work.

A diplomatic engine that was nice when the player was nice and nasty when he was nasty would be no challenge at all. Imagine it: turns 1-20, be nice to everyone, grab all rebel provinces and build up your economy; turns 21-40, be nasty to factions A and B thereby causing them to attack you, allowing you to maintain good relations with everyone else; turns 41-60, repair relations with badly bruised factions A and B, turn up the heat on C and D so they attack you without your reputation being damaged; and so on. That may be a gross oversimplification but it sounds like what people seem to want.

Historically, alliances between genuine rivals and neighbours in medieval Europe and the Middle East where very, very rare. Most retainers were bound to their liege by loyalty alone (from a legal point of view, anyway). You had to be suspicious of your neighbour because you were in competition with him for the loyalty of powerful vassals and the territory they held. You might work together on a Crusade but this worked better in theory than in practice (cf. Richard oc e no and Philip Augustus and the 3rd Crusade). As for the Muslims - well, you might think they have more in common with each than with the Christians but why? The Egyptians and Turks disputed the Caliphate and the Moors had little to do with the other two. And inter-faith relations? They were shocking for the most part. The game reflects all this.

In medieval Europe, a state of undeclared war existed between close neighbours for much of the time. It was highly unusual and very difficult for neighbouring monarchs to maintain good relations for long periods. Most didn't bother to try, although they'd avoid outright hostilities for the most part too. Hence the state of undeclared war I mentioned earlier. Border raids, cattle rustling, etc. If either side ever wanted to build a case for a 'just war', they normally didn't have to look far.

So, is the diplomatic engine broken? Yes, in so far as you can't tell opposing armies to get off your land and you can't broker ceasefires easily enough; no, in so far as being able to easily manipulate factions to behave as you wished simply on the basis of how you behaved to them would be one-sided, unrealistic and unchallenging.

The real problem, as I see it, is the pesky one boat blockades that tend to start all these things snowballing in the first place. Get rid of them and the whole thing makes much more sense.

[Durallan]

I think it would be fixed by a statement that was added to it like it should say

IF target_faction is ENEMY and SHARE BORDERS = 0 then SET PREFER_NAVAL_INVASION = 1
else SET PREFER_NAVAL_INVASION =0

or whatever I'm not too sure how the prefer naval invasions thing works I'd have to look but it seeem ABSOLUTELY rediculous that the mission generator would generate missions for the AI against nations that you have high standings with, or are allied with! they really should have done something along these lines and that should have curbed the random naval attacks and sieges.

[atheotes]

I agree with what Diotavelli says...
In my last campaign, i played the Scots and managed to maintain alliances with Spain, France and Papal states throughout the campaign and with Russia till they were wiped out by the Mongols. Sicily was also an ally for 100+ turns who then blockaded a port and broke the alliance... Even when i finished the campaign (barely managed to get the 45 cities required) i was at war only with Sicily, Denmark (perenialy excommed), Turks and Egypt.

[WhiskeyGhost]

A good way to get your old allies off your back is that when they decide to siege/march troops into your lands, do the same, and they will almost immediately retreat their forces.......in fact, i've broken long powerful sieges simply by placing a decent sized (yet inferior) army near one of their towns without actually attacking it. Also, they seem to be a little more receptive to a ceasefire if you actually pose a threat on their cities (as apposed to being on the defensive in your towns)

[HoreTore]

The OP simply hasn't figured it out yet. When you figure out what does what, then it's a lot easier and makes a lot of sense.

Also, the problem isn't so much the diplomacy, it's the campaign AI, ie. when they declare war they don't send enough troops(though they do send a lot more if you bump their money). Remember, the AI shouldn't just attack because they hate you, it's logical that they backstab and attack a close friend on the simple grounds that they want more land/cash. The problem though, is that they don't attack properly.

[John_Longarrow]

Personally, I wish that alliances would reflect what they were really used for during the time period; attacking someone. In reality alliances were not about defense but were about attacking a mutual threat or enemy.

The French and the Scots allied not because they liked each other or to ensure peace between themselves. They allied against the English. Nothing in there was a "To help each other" concept outside of getting rid of the English threat.

I do wish that there was more of that in the game. It would still seem "Broken" to anyone in the lead as no one would want to be the "Ally" of the largest power around. Sure, they would want to stay friendly to avoid having you destroy them, but they would not ally with you against someone else.

[Sheogorath]

you can't intimidate your opponents into doing what you want either. Creating a large army and killing everyone isn't really diplomacy at all.

Thats 'cause the AI is stupid. The saying "The Pen Is Mightier Than the Sword" only applies in the 17th century and beyond. Up until 1600 pointy bits of metal carry the day.
And of course you can indimidate the AI into doing what you want. You want their country to cease existing, correct? Therefore, the best course of action is to kick its digital arse back to Timbuktu and kill everything that gets in your way.

[Tyrac]

It is actually rather sad. But simple.

If diplomacy was "logical" (and therefore easy) the human player would crush and dominate even MORE!

Do you really want LESS of a challenge?

[John_Longarrow]

Originally posted by Sheogorath
the best course of action is to kick its digital arse back to Timbuktu

Back TO Timbuktu??? I try to kick them OUT of it so I can get all that Gold and Ivory!!!

[Aaronontheweb]

@Corka,

I just made a new post about building Coalitions, but so far that only works when you have:

1. Reliable Status
2. Supreme Power Status
3. An alliance with the Papal States
4. The Papal States are Supremely Powerful (two Supremely power states allied together makes for a tough combo, plus the Pope won't backstab you)
5. Use a "Crusade" to fight against a common enemy, preferably one of a different Religion (although I did get the Milanese out of the game pretty quickly after they got excommunicated for attacking me)

Here's the post I just put up:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87879

Hope it helps. It's made for a VERY fun Middle Eastern 6 (me as Venice, Hungary, Denmark, Papal States, Egypt [yeah, they wanted in on it too], Poland) on 2 (Mongols and their strong Byzantine allies) skirmish so far!

[Aaronontheweb]

Yup. Almost all "want peace" lines in the AI file have AND IS NOT SHADOW FACTION as a prerequisite. Also, factions will never offer their shadow factions to become their vassals, nor will they accept to become the vassal of their shadows. This leads me to assume shadow factions are the ones you need to off in a short campaign.

Pardon me for asking, but what is a "Shadow Faction?"

In addition, yes, the AI doesn't have much of a sense of self-preservation.