IMperial Roman Reforms and the Roman Civil War

[Divinus Arma]

Just a thought gents. With the current discussion about Imperial Reforms.
With these reforms: Any consideration for a representation of the civil war that occurred with the declaration of dictatorship by old Gaius Julius?

Maybe script in a stack or ten with Pompey and Cato type characters when the reforms take place?

Start with a decent rebel force and a named character in Southern Italy, then produce a similar stack in Hispania, Greece, Egypt, and etc, etc. All in historically accurate locations and highly relevant to the setting.

What say you my fine, fine friends?

[Pharnakes]

I think its is an idea that is worth thought, however I doubt if it will ever happen, at least officaly, given the teams stance on the scripted inclusion of historical characters.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I think it's a good idea, but not for the Imperial reforms, but for the Marians. The civil wars from Sulla to the Social wars to the Triumvirates are the historical occurrences that led to the Principate, the de facto dictatorship of Octavian, depicted in EB as the Imperial reforms. Second, some of the Marian units are imho a result of the constant warring, at least that goes for the Cohors Evocata, veterans more loyal to a certain general than to the res publica.

I think it would be nice to have "rebel" stacks pop up that are led by "candidates" to the leadership, as it would be historically accurate and reasonable.

[Imperator]

As a rule, I oppose adding strict "Historical" characters or army-spawns. The Roman Civil Wars were far from inevitable so designing the game otherwise is ahistorical. I prefer EB's approach to history, which is to create as historic an environment as possible, then letting us players romp around, remaking history in a historically accurate and feasible way.

[Geoffrey S]

Far from inevitable? I think it became extremely likely once armies became more directly tied to their personal leaders who paid them than the more distant and abstract authority of SPQR.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

We already have randomly spawning candidates' stacks. It doesn't matter that much if the candidate is a historical figure or not. We had this discussion in another recent thread about succession iirc.

Wouldn't the following be possible:

when a character is receiving the "Faction leader" trait, check out his influence and other abilities, and on that basis, give a certain chance that a rebel stack (preferably a big stack) with a character will appear near the capital.

In that way succession troubles could be simulated. If a character has eg. influece 10, management 8, the chance could be very low that a rebel army would spawn. If said character has influence 3, management 5, chances could be 50% of 60%. If he has not one influence or management, chances of a rebel stack to spawn should be 99%.

I'll post that glorious idea in the succession thread as well.

@Imperator:

The Roman civil wars were not inevitable, but they led to the principate.

[pezhetairoi]

Well, perhaps a modification of that could be in order: We need rebels' stacks that don't just involve velites, but actual cohors reformata, and therefore, actual challenge.

[Divinus Arma]

I really don't see a need to include historical characters. I would just like to see some understandable social upheavel that would accompany the death of a republic and the rise of an empire.

[blacksnail]

Hi Divinus! Good to see you.

That is a cool idea - I'll bring it to the attention of our Romani FC if he hasn't seen it yet.

[Divinus Arma]

Thanks! Sadly, I cannot offer anything. At least I am enjoying your hard work with many hours of joyous playtesting.

(I guess you guys probably already caught this civil revolt CTD, eh? I hope. This seems to be the major showstopper I have noticed.)

[blacksnail]

Glad you're enjoying it. One day I hope to be able to play the game as well.

Civil revolt thing is being worked upon currently - I think we have a workaround for the next version. After multiple years, the bug will die...

[Sakkura]

I really don't see a need to include historical characters. I would just like to see some understandable social upheavel that would accompany the death of a republic and the rise of an empire.

Or maybe rather, the social upheavals that triggered a long series of civil wars, which ended in the establishment of a de facto empire under the guise of the republic.

The empire resulted from the unrest, not the other way around.

[Divinus Arma]

Or maybe rather, the social upheavals that triggered a long series of civil wars, which ended in the establishment of a de facto empire under the guise of the republic.

The empire resulted from the unrest, not the other way around.

Sure. Whatever. Sounds good.

[GodEmperorLeto]

The Roman Civil Wars were far from inevitable so designing the game otherwise is ahistorical. I prefer EB's approach to history, which is to create as historic an environment as possible, then letting us players romp around, remaking history in a historically accurate and feasible way.

The question of inevitability is always a tough one. In many ways, the cvrsvs honorem was one of the factors that led to the collapse of Republican authority, as was the tendency for generals to control their legions directly through payments and rewards.

Many historians would argue that, barring the intervention of a powerful and persuasive individual, Roman history would have inexorably ground into a cycle of civil wars. In a way, The empire was destined to either end up a military dictatorship, or collapse from the constant internal strife and civil wars.

Check out Ronald Syme's The Roman Revolution as well as H. H. Scullard's From the Gracchi to Nero. (Scullard asks the most poignant question regarding Republican history--"Can a city-state govern an empire?" The answer, unfortunately, is "no.") Also, checking out Theodor Mommsen's Romische Geschicte might not be a bad idea, either (don't worry, if you can't read German, there's plenty of English translations). I'll spare you a list of articles you can read on the subject, unless anyone is REALLY that interested.

Or maybe rather, the social upheavals that triggered a long series of civil wars, which ended in the establishment of a de facto empire under the guise of the republic.

Chicken vs. egg argument. But an interesting one nonetheless.

What I see as a possibility is to fight the civil wars through traits. Traits that can lead to entire sections of the Roman polity going over to the Rebels.

Also, positions such as Dictator and Emperor can be created through traits as well. Much like getting a triumph, or the new system of going through the Spartan agoge, the player can take a character through a series of actions along a flow-chart of traits in order to unify the empire and establish the principate.

[Zaknafien]

What I see as a possibility is to fight the civil wars through traits. Traits that can lead to entire sections of the Roman polity going over to the Rebels.

Also, positions such as Dictator and Emperor can be created through traits as well. Much like getting a triumph, or the new system of going through the Spartan agoge, the player can take a character through a series of actions along a flow-chart of traits in order to unify the empire and establish the principate.

Shhh.....

[Redmeth]

I know you're just dying to tell us... Come on Zak, let it go, tell us about it, you'll feel so good afterwards...