Imperial Diet IV

[Privateerkev]

Jan looks at Duke Gerhard

Control me my dear Duke?

There was nothing to control. It was I who was attacked by another member of this Diet. And it was I who was hunted down near my home in Outremer. All I have done is protect myself. Why do you fight God's will? God chose the Kaiser. Kaiser Jobst saw that which is why he gave Emperor Siegfried preferential treatment. Do you think it was coincidence that Kaiser Jobst picked Kaiser Siegfried to accompany him with the Imperial Army? Everyone needs to wake up and see what is in front of them.

[AussieGiant]

Laughing at Jan, Arnold voice begins calm and end like ice.

Rail all you want.

The Duke of three houses have spoken Jan.

The legislation is passed!!! It will be voted on, AS IS LAW IN THIS LAND!!

[Stig]

Stop playing Arnold, if it is passed it still needs to get through the votes.
I will gladly bring up arguments in support, AND against my little brother once the leaders of the 5 houses come together to sit around a big round table.

And don't forget to bring your Dread knight, my men can learn something from him

[AussieGiant]

Casting a serious gaze at Ansehelm

Ansehelm, your cousin is in danger of causing much damage to your own cause. I have spoken to you about your Russian Crusade....if your cousin continues to insult me or provoke me without reason then I will need to apply pressure.

I'm sure you can understand.

Having one's own HOUSE in order is vital for any good Steward or Duke.

I have learnt that from many men greater than me.

Sigismund and Lord Zirn are my vassals and they are treated with dignity and respect. Where pure violence fails real power can elicited even great results.

If the edict is passed we will sit and conduct our review. Outremer is not a house but a special status accorded to the work of Sailer and for good reason.

The Dread Knight Bane is conducting work on my behalf. I'm more than happy to meet with you to discuss your mission and tactic going to Russia. Bane could be more than useful on many points we would need to clarify.

AS I mentioned I did spend some of my childhood there and I still have many contacts through the merchant guilds.

[Stuperman]

Jan looks at Duke Gerhard

Control me my dear Duke?

There was nothing to control. It was I who was attacked by another member of this Diet. And it was I who was hunted down near my home in Outremer. All I have done is protect myself. Why do you fight God's will? God chose the Kaiser. Kaiser Jobst saw that which is why he gave Emperor Siegfried preferential treatment. Do you think it was coincidence that Kaiser Jobst picked Kaiser Siegfried to accompany him with the Imperial Army? Everyone needs to wake up and see what is in front of them.

Control you mouth perhaps, as a junior member of the Diet you are rather quick to offer your opinion, especailly to people who neither want or need it. You constantly question men with years more expierence and significantly more intelect, over thier actions while turning a blind eye to the actions of your own household. Perhaps when you stop employing a wet nurse people will take you more seriously.

As for 'gods will'...Gerhard pauses and spits on the floor...If god's will includes taking my son, cursing my whole family, and undoing the work we've done in Outremer to spread his word, I want nothing to do with it. I understand the global political implacations of failing to show proper respect for the church, but personally want none of it.

[Stig]

I know control of one's own house is important, but you know us Franconians, fightfull eey? And that's the problem, it's hard to control a Franconian, especially if you also have to look at world politics.

Anyway, when I proposed Edict11.3 I ofcourse forgot to mention that Kaiser Jobst asked for it to continue in his last written letter. And ofcourse that it was originally made up by Kaiser Henry.


And personally I see the Outremer as a House, afterall it's a pretty important part of our empire.

[econ21]

Diet Speaker: I believe Edict 11.2 should be recast as a Charter Amendment. Having the Dukes elect the Head of State would be a major change to our constitution and should require a 2/3 majority of the Diet to pass.

[Stig]

Actually I have an addition to make to Edict11.3

Edict 11.3:This Edict will be a complete copy of Edict 10.4
An expeditionary force will march on Moscow, via Russian - not Polish - provinces (Riga, Novogorod etc). It must engage any enemy field armies it meets along the way, but only besiege Moscow. It will consist of a single stack and will not be reinforced except from locally recruited mercenaries. Moscow will be sacked and abandoned, although no buildings will be destroyed.
Next to that this Edict will continue through Diet Sessions and even though Moscow might not have been taken by 1280 the crusade will go on till it has been taken.


Am I getting old?

[Stig]

Actually Herr Speaker there will be no vote if the Heads of the 5 Houses agree that this is not needed.

[AussieGiant]

I propose the following edicts.

(Personal)

Edict 11.4

A suitable bride will be sought out for Duke Arnold to ensure the ancestral house of Austria and the structure of the Reich remain as designed by out forefathers.

Duke Arnold has the right of refusal on any proposals.


(Ducal Edict)

Edict 11.5

The Hungarian Capital of Bran will be taken by Austrian forces and be lead by a general of House Austria.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

Duke Arnold, Edict 11.1 is an Outremer edict, not a personal one, and thus is proposed with the required amount of seconders.

[Privateerkev]

Control you mouth perhaps, as a junior member of the Diet you are rather quick to offer your opinion, especailly to people who neither want or need it. You constantly question men with years more expierence and significantly more intelect, over thier actions while turning a blind eye to the actions of your own household. Perhaps when you stop employing a wet nurse people will take you more seriously.

My dear duke,

You only show your own ignorance to the situation. I am thirty years of age. I have survived one crusade and, god willing, will embark on another. I have survived repeated attempts from another Duke here to kill me. I am the crusader count of Edessa. I have more than earned my place to speak at this Diet. You just happen to not agree with my words. And that is your right. But, that does not mean I will let you silence me with attempts at paternalism and peer pressure.

[Stig]

I second both Edict 11.4 and Edict 11.5.
11.4 is needed to let the house of Austria survive, it's important that Arnold gets married.
As for 11.5 taking Bran will mean that we will be able to hold back the Hungarians for some time, taking their capital. Though I need to say, if it gets difficult to defend we might think of deserting it and letting it turn rebel. It will be an outpost deep into enemy territory, I'm sure Duke Arnold can hold onto it, but we've seen what we had to do for Thorn, and Austria does not have 5 generals to defend it, it has Duke Arnold and Sigismund, and that's it.

[TinCow]

For the record, King Salier, Outremer does not have the privilege of being able to propose House edicts as the Ducal Houses do. Therefore Edict 11.1 counts as your personal Edict and it must be seconded openly in the Diet. While the open seconding is really a minor matter, given that the Edict has support already, the fact that it is a personal edict rather than some free Outremer edict, is important.

[Privateerkev]

I do not second 11.4 because I am not willing to subject a poor woman to such a cruel fate.

[GeneralHankerchief]

For the record, King Salier, Outremer does not have the privilege of being able to propose House edicts as the Ducal Houses do. Therefore Edict 11.1 counts as your personal Edict and it must be seconded openly in the Diet. While the open seconding is really a minor matter, given that the Edict has support already, the fact that it is a personal edict rather than some free Outremer edict, is important.

With all due respect, I believe that it is up to Kaiser Siegfried to decide.

Do you see what is occuring, Dear Electors? Even now, Count Steffin wishes to take as much power away from those of us who have dedicated our lives to keep the Horse Lords at bay and stay away from our families back in Europe. Continue to alienate your Electors, Lothar, and you will pay.

[AussieGiant]

I second edict 11.3.

Bowing to Ansehelm

Apologies to King Sailer, but it must be freely seconded as Lothar mentions.

Ansehelm, the amendments of this Reich clearly state there are four houses and that Outremer is not a House. Outremer is set number of provinces with a specific mandate. Even King Sailer can confirm that.

Jan, you maybe thirty but no one can tell. Now you go and cast dispersion on my potential wife. Is there no end to your insults?

Can you for once let a superior have the last word?

[Stig]

I know The Outremer is not a House Duke Arnold, but as you very well know it is an important part of our empire, even the un-pious me agree that it needs support, the same support the Houses recieve, as it will have a hard task to face.

Horse Lords for example, I think that even Bane will think twice about going to war against them.

[Stuperman]

My dear duke,

You only show your own ignorance to the situation. I am thirty years of age. I have survived one crusade and, god willing, will embark on another. I have survived repeated attempts from another Duke here to kill me. I am the crusader count of Edessa. I have more than earned my place to speak at this Diet. You just happen to not agree with my words. And that is your right. But, that does not mean I will let you silence me with attempts at paternalism and peer pressure.

Speak at the diet, yes, but openly critisize A military superior is something that you have NOT earned. Especailly if it is for executing prisioners just as your fellow Franconia Ansehelm has done.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

I second Edict 11.3.

[AussieGiant]

I somewhat agree with your comments about Outremer Ansehelm.

You must know that any man under my command will go to war, when and where I require...

...Horse Lords or not, destruction will follow where ever I tread!!

With that statement Arnold's retinue enters the Diet from the Austria chambers.

Standing behind the Duke the three men are without emotion or movement.

[Stig]

Since Edict 11.1 is in need of support I will second it.
Though I do advise King Salier to also look at the House Lords, beating them is the first priority as it seems.

[TinCow]

It is most certainly not up to Kaiser Siegfried, for there is no rule to dispute. The law is very clear on this matter;

Charter Ammendment 5.2: Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose THREE House edicts per Diet provided that they have previously securing the backing of two other members of their House.

The King of Outremer is not a Duke and Outremer is not a Ducal House. There is no possible way that this legislation can be interpreted to give Outremer its own votes. You accuse me of taking away power, but it is in fact you who is attempting to sieze power that is not due you. You are still a member of the House of Bavaria and you have access to the Bavarian House Edicts if you wish to use them. By attempting to summarily create Outremer Edicts as well, you are elevating your own legislative rights above even the Dukes!

As for threatening me, King Salier, I find that most amusing. Do not underestimate me, my Bavarian friend, for I can make life most unpleasant for you.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

Only if you are elected Chancellor, which currently does not seem to be the case. Good day.

[TinCow]

*Lothar leans over to whisper in the ear of a retainer. They both look at King Salier and start to laugh.*

[Privateerkev]

Jan, you maybe thirty but no one can tell. Now you go and cast dispersion on my potential wife. Is there no end to your insults?

Can you for once let a superior have the last word?

Last word? I thought this was a forum of free debate. But I see that only is true if the Duke's like what you say... I never casted dispersions on your potential wife. Only on you. And I dare say you have earned it. May I remind you that I saved your life Duke Arnold. Funny that your so against the concept of chivalry when it is the only reason you are with us...

And Duke Gerhard, the Kaiser himself has protected my right to talk about Arnold's....actions. He just commanded me to put it in an edict if I feel so strongly about it. And a CA is being written as we speak. I am well aware of Ansehelm's actions which is why I am skeptical of allowing him to go to Russia. I feel it would only condemn those poor Russians and Poles to death. Now, if he would be open to supporting my CA, I might have second thoughts...

[Cecil XIX]

I second Edicts 11.4 and 11.5.

I also have a question about Edict 11.2. Specifically, I want to know if the contents of this discussion will be made available to the Diet, and if the vote in question will involve all electors, or just those five you participated in the talks.

[Stuperman]

I feel it would only condemn those poor Russians and Poles to death. Now, if he would be open to supporting my CA, I might have second thoughts...

POOR RUSSIANS AND POLES!??!?!?!?

Now I understand, you are completely insane.

I would also like to second Edict 11.1, 11.3, 11.4, and 11.5

[Privateerkev]

Insane? I just care about their souls. They are humans. While they stand against Ansehelm, they should die. But, if they were to lay down their arms, they should be given mercy. Is that insanity? I say it is humanity.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

In order to prove to the Diet that my insistence that Outremer Edicts are NOT a power grab, but are in fact, legal, allow me to present the following information.

First, this is Lothar's statement regarding me:

You accuse me of taking away power, but it is in fact you who is attempting to sieze power that is not due you. You are still a member of the House of Bavaria and you have access to the Bavarian House Edicts if you wish to use them. By attempting to summarily create Outremer Edicts as well, you are elevating your own legislative rights above even the Dukes!

However, for the duration of my appointment, I am most obviously NOT a member of the House of Bavaria, as indicated by this portion of the Charter of Outremer below:

4. The Kingdom will be overseen by a King of Outremer, who will be appointed by the Emperor at each full Diet session. The King will temporarily renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his appointment (e.g. if Duke, must appoint a Steward).

Therefore, Lothar is obviously trying to freeze me out of the decision-making, attempting to make me unable to contribute to House Edicts in any form, shape, etc. It is this portion of the Charter that is my argument. It is this portion of the Charter that clearly indicates that I cannot take part in any official Bavarian discussion, thus regrettably rendering me unable to second any proposed House Edicts in their own personal discussion chambers.