Imperial Diet IV

[Stuperman]

I'd say the constant sieges of thorn over the last 50 years show that the russians and poles have little intension of laying doen thier arms.

[AussieGiant]

I tell you what von Hamburg, why don't you take your little bow tied, pink suit of armour and buff it up so you look like a big mirror.

Then take yourself out to those horse lords, drop you breaches and show the world that the sun really does shine out of your *&s!!

How about that for an idea you big fairy??!!

You'll look really pretty you know. Maybe one of your fudge packing colleagues can go with you an paint a nice big picture of you doing this. You know...for historical reasons.

You can sit down with the Khan, who'll be obviously dazzled nearly blind by the rays of light bursting out of your butt and decide that you've got one hell of an idea acting like you are.

How about you get that drafted up with that nice flowery hand writing you have!!??

As the the Duke finally finishes his monologue the entire Austrian contingent is barely containing their composure at the visual.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

Duke Arnold, if I second 11.4, will you promise to take your blustering elsewhere? This is growing tiresome especially considering I had thought this conflict resolved.

[Stuperman]

Getting back to real business, I'd like to announce that Lothar Steffen has officially been named the Commander of the BHA, He has also been named Hier to the title of Duke of Bavaria.

[Stig]

For that I wish to congratulate Lothar, I know that often we do not agree, but something like this deserves a congratulation.

[AussieGiant]

Christ Sailer what do you want me to do?

Your Crusader Count is flying in the face of all feudal authority. I don't see where I have to do anything but ask him to apologies for the entire thing and have just about ever senior member of the Reich agree with that request.

Second or don't second as you wish King Sailer, I'm not prepared to negotiate about his behaviour considering it's been totally disrespectful since the very beginning.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

You could always be the better man and simply not respond. Count von Hamburg has proven his immaturaty by refusing to let the issue go. You could gain even more respect in the Diet by simply ignoring him.

[TinCow]

I am most certainly not trying to freeze you out of anything, King Salier, I merely wish to make sure that the law is obeyed. Even if you what you say is true and you cannot utilize the Bavarian House Edicts, by creating these Outremer Edicts, you give all Crusader Counts the same double-legislative abilities that you claim not to have. As for any difficulties you suffer as a result of being limited to only your own personal edict, surely the extra Diet influence you gain as a result of your position is sufficient compensation. What you are trying to do is create a Fifth House in the Reich. Outremer was never intended for such a purpose, but clearly you believe it is. Yet more proof that Outremer is growing to be more powerful and more important than any of the Duchies.

[AussieGiant]

Gentlemen,

von Hamburg and I have had our seconds discuss the issue like gentlemen outside the Diet.

There will be a statement shortly.

And no I don't mean Bane and Grom are crushing Teutons into little pieces. Discussions are really taking place.

With that Arnold depart the Chamber at some speed.

[Kagemusha]

Jonas Von Mahren enters the diet, drunk as a sailor.

"Long live new Kaiser! I heard that we have a new leader, so i thought to visit the diet between few beers. In matter of fact it feels as if the Swabian Kaiser Jobst reign didnt last more then few ale´s. Atleast now we have an Franconian Kaiser and i would propose that as a sign of his politics he would change the capital of the Reich back to Germany. Im personally quite tired of the wenches of Rome!"

Jonas stumbles back into his seat and starts demanding more beer from his servants.

[TinCow]

*Lothar grins.*

It is good to see that there are still some proper Germans of the old-style left in the Diet. Count von Mahren, you should come visit Florence sometime. It is one of my life's ambitions to make sure that my County has the finest drinking establishments in all of Europe!

[Kagemusha]

"I might have to take on that offer Von Steffen! I might stop by in there after leaving this wretched city, where beer is watered down and all you see is different kind of bodyguards fighting each other outside the diet building. Are these duals between henchmen and nobility somekind of new fashion, since my scribe tells me that novadays here in diet all you hear is dual challenges between lords and their wretched foreign mercenaries and other squandrels?"

[econ21]

Diet Speaker: A list of proposed laws and their seconders has been posted at the entrance to the Diet. Edict 11.2 has been recast as Charter Amendment 11.1.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...29&postcount=1

[gibsonsg91921]

I second Edict 11.3 and openly support Matthias Steffen for Chancellor.

[Stuperman]

Diet Speaker: A list of proposed laws and their seconders has been posted at the entrance to the Diet. Edict 11.2 has been recast as Charter Amendment 11.1.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...29&postcount=1

OOC: Hey econ, the save listed under the list is very old, just fyi...

[gibsonsg91921]

I have an edict to propose:

Edict 11.6: The Polish fortress of Vilnius is to be taken by the Franconian Household Army by the end of the chancellor's term.

This Edict will help the north of the Reich and the east as the Polish forces recruited at Vilnius are a constant plague on the citadel of Thorn and the surrounding areas.

[FactionHeir]

I second Edicts 11.1-11.5 and CA 11.1.

OOC: Id say more but gotta run

[TevashSzat]

I will amend my Edict so it is better suited for an ammendment.

Charter Amendment 11.1: Whenever a large dispute arises over the legitamacy of one's succesion to a position of high power (Kaiser, King of Outremer, or Dukedom), a council shall be set forth to discuss the events and vote on who shal succede. Should the position of Kaiser be questioned, the four Dukes and the King of Outremer shall decide who is to become Kaiser. Should a Dukedom or the King of Outremer be under dispute, those not directly involved in the dispute shall be part of the council

I know that there is no chance of Siegfried being removed from his position, but I believe that this amendment can fix any further disputes over rights of ascension.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

I second this revised amendment and encourage others to do the same.

[Privateerkev]

Jan von Hamburg has been watching all of the debating going on for hours. He finally gets up to speak.

After sitting here thinking for a few hours I have some things to say. It is clear that things being debated in this Diet have become too much about me. And that is unfortunate because there are a great many important things being debated this Diet session. It is also clear that I am not a good messenger for my message. And that is also unfortunate because I believe I have an important message. While I will strive to be a better messenger, it realistically will not happen before the end of this session. There have been too many hurt words, hurt feelings, and real sword fights lately to hope for emotions to calm down anytime soon. So, I have decided that I am going to leave this Diet for the rest of the Diet session and return to my home in Edessa where I will prepare for the coming battles. Through my fault, and the fault of others Jan eyes Duke Arnold my presence here has become a disruption. Maybe by the time the next Diet session rolls around, things will be calmer, I'll be calmer, or both. Until then I will do my utmost to serve the Lord and the Kaiser like I have always done. I will still write and read what is written to me. And I can be found in the Outremer great hall.

Furthermore, I am officially tabling the CA I was working on. While I do believe it is important legislation, I have helped create an environment so toxic, that I believe it will have zero chance of passing. Since I have become a burden to those who support me, and their causes, I will give up my crusader count title if King Salier asks. I refuse to let peoples' hard feelings towards me hurt the causes I so deeply believe in. Also, this would alleviate the King from having to fire me due to the political pressure he himself is facing. As for Ansehelm, there is no title he can strip from me so there is no point for people to keep putting pressure on him anymore either. The only other thing that can be taken from me is Diet access but since I am leaving the Diet for now, that will have little real effect on my day-to-day life. Now that just leaves one more thing to discuss.

Jan turns to Duke Arnold

I have been told that if I apologize to you, then some of this unpleasantness will go away. Well, that is not going to happen. You had my best friend killed. You tried to kill me twice personally. And you are a sadistic butcher with the blood of thousands on your hands. All I have left is my honor. And if I apologize to you, that goes too. Now I am sure that one I am done speaking, you'll scream and threaten. You'll probably run to my steward or maybe my King and demand that some bad thing or another happen to me. You might hold their legislation ransom. You might even follow me to Outremer again though that did not go very well for you last time. Either way I do not care. Because you can not hurt me anymore. I have already lost everything you could have taken. I have not let you taken my honor. And you have proven too incompetent to take my life. And I bid you good day and pray that we will never meet again.

With that, Jan walks up to the Kaiser, bows, and walks out of the Diet with Maximillian trailing him.

[TinCow]

Electors, I present to you two Bavarian Household Edicts. The proper kind, not King Salier's imitation brand.

Edict 11.7: Before the end of the Chancellor's term, Cagliari must be conquered by the Bavarian Household Army, led by a Bavarian general. If the Milanese are destroyed by another faction before this can be accomplished, this Edict is void.
Proposed: Lothar Steffen
Seconders: Gerhard Steffen, Matthias Steffen

Edict 11.8: If war breaks out between the Reich and Sicily, the conquest of Naples and Palermo is authorized.
Proposed: Lothar Steffen
Seconders: Gerhard Steffen, Matthias Steffen

For those of you whose initial inclination is to vote against these Edicts simply because I proposed them, please note that my noble brother's name is on them as well. The Milanese Edict is more than just given what we Bavarians have had to put up with from those dogs for endless decades now. The Sicilian Edict is neither warmongering nor a land grab. We do not wish a war nor are we starting one. This legislation is simply prudent planning in case of the unexpected.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

Mmhm. Keep tossing those little barbs in, Lothar.

I support both Edicts, by the way.

[Stig]

Actually Lothar, Household Edicts can only be proposed by the Duke.

And since enough of people were willing to let Edict11.1 have a go in the votings I second CA 11.1

[AussieGiant]

Raising an amused eyebrow at the departing figure of Jan von Hamburg, the Dread Knight Bane enters the Austrian Benches and whispers into the Dukes ear, after some moments

So, it seems our seconds did not reach an agreement after all.

Such a shame really.

On to business. Edicts 11.7 and 11.8 do not need seconds but I certainly support them.

I'd like to reword my two edicts Mr Speaker.


Edict 11.4: Before the end of the chancellors term, a suitable bride will be sought out for Duke Arnold to ensure the ancestral house of Austria and the structure of the Reich remain as designed by out forefathers.

Duke Arnold has the right of refusal on any proposals.

(Ducal Edict)Edict 11.5: Before the end of the chancellors term, the Hungarian Capital of Bran will be taken by Austrian forces and be lead by a general of House Austria.

On an administrative matter for the scribes.

Sigismund von Mahren is now named Count of Prague, the title of Count of Venice shall revert to me. Build orders will be adjusted in the Chancellors report.

[OverKnight]

OOC: A list of updated legislation is here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...4&postcount=11

[TinCow]

Indeed, Ansehelm, you are correct and I apologize for my procedural error. When Duke Gerhard speaks up on the matter, I will edit the legislation to show that he is the proposer.

[Ituralde]

Emperor Siegfried, who had been talking in whispered tones with an old advisor standing behind his right shoulder, had followed the discussion in the Diet impassively so far. After a final whispered exchange with his Tutor he raises to address the Diet.

Dukes and Counts, Electors of the Reich!

As I can see there is still much discussion concerning the legitimacy of my claim to the Imperial throne. While I can understand the need for an elaborated discussion on the matter, which should be held here in front of the Diet for anyone to hear, I can not condone any of the actions proposed within Charter Amendment 11.1. In fact the mere contents of it go against the core of our very Charter, while the details are so vague that its implementation could never be fully controlled.

Let's see what our Charter has to say on the matter of succession.
The following passages come to mind:

4.7 Dukes and Counts should name a successor, who will take over their titles and settlements when they die. If no successor is named, the oldest natural son inherits, (if none, oldest adopted son; if none again, then the oldest son-in-law).
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 2: Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.

5.5 The Prince succeeds the Emperor and can deputise in his absence.

These instructions seem very clear to me. Of course I can see the point that it does not specifically mention, who appoints the Prince, which succeeds the Emperor. In absence of facts, it seems prudent to follow the tradition laid out by our ancestors.

I hereby propose Charter Amendment 11.2:
Point 5.5 of the Charter is to be amended by the following: The Prince is appointed by the Emperor upon his ascension to the throne. Should a Prince die a new heir has to be appointed immediately.

So as you can see there is no need to regulate the details of the succession in the Empire, as they are already laid out by our Charter. I know that there has been much doubt cast unto the choice of the late Emperor Jobst actions, this should not however be used to unravel the existing feudal structures present within the Empire.

I'd like to remind every Elector, that decides to support CA 11.1 to think carefully of its implications. It allows the Diet to question your own choices concerning your successor at a whim. I quote "Whenever a large dispute arises". A large dispute? Who decides what makes a dispute small or large, when exactly will this CA spring into action? Seeing the heated nature of our discussions every dispute is bound to grow large. Does every Duke here wish to have his successor questioned every time? To have the powers specifically given to him in the Charter stripped away from him?

There is also the minor matter of including the King of Outremere into this obscure election council. The title of the King of Outremere is not a hereditary one. In fact, we currently do not have any one person occupying this position, as King Salier has been appointed by my predecessor for the duration of one Chancellorship. It is up to the Kaiser to appoint the King of Outremer and I have not yet made my decision on this matter.

I will not stand idly by, while you tread the heritage of our Emperors with your feet, men appointed by God to lead our Reich. A power that was never meant to be in the hands of Dukes. At the same time you willingly jeopardize your own hereditary rights to have sole control over your succession. The CA 11.1 can not stand in this form.

This being said, I do not wish to aggravate any House, seeing as I am of none, but instead will try to act on behalf of all House equally. As such it is my wish to make the exact circumstances of my ascension clear to everyone present in this Diet. The last words spoken by Emperor Jobst were heard by several witnesses and I will let every one of them be called in front of this Diet to speak to you. Should the outcome still leave the faintest trace of a doubt as to Emperor Jobst choice I will glady submit myself to a vote from this chamber!

I will thus propose Edict 11.9:
Should the proceedings of the 11th Diet not lead to a satisfactory result, concerning the ascension of Emperor Siegfried, agreed upon by all Dukes, a public vote of all members of the Diet shall determine the status of Emperor Siegfried.

Oh and by the way, since you weren't too precise on it either I have not mentioned it so far, but what happens exactly, should my elaborations not satisfy this august body? Will another heir be chosen? What if there is a large dispute about him also? I am sure we could keep this up for quite some time, reconsidering and reelecting until everyone had his share of being Emperor. And while I myself am young and have the time, I believe the enemies of the Empire will not sit idly while we dispute our leader. The Horse Lords are ready to strike, Jerusalem has been taken, Hungarians and Poles march into Imperial territory as we speak and the French are mustering their forces too. While we sit here divided. It is up to you how long this division continues and how much will be lost through it.

Emperor Siegfried resumes his seat again.

[econ21]

Elberhard: I would like to offer my unconditional support to Kaiser Siegfried. While the succession may take some strange twists of fate and leave some mighty men deprived of what might be considered their birthright, I do not think anyone seriously doubts that the Kaiser has assumed the throne honestly and in accordance with due process. Nor have I heard anyone raise questions about the character of our new Kaiser, whose unblemished record may have played no small part in Kaiser Jobst elevating him to power.

I would oppose all constitutional amendments and edicts that allow the Dukes or the Diet to interfere in the succession. Electors, we have a constitution with subtle separations of powers. The Kaiser, Chancellor, Dukes, Counts, Diet, Houses and Outremer all have their role to play in the Reich's affairs. If we allow any one part - whether it is the Dukes or the Diet - to take control of another, then we risk destroying that separation of powers. We would sail perilously close to the Syclla and Charybdis of dictatorship and democracy - twin evils that often reduce to the same thing.

Our founders created a Charter that has seen the Reich rise from a beleaguered and emasculated power to one that towers above all other factions and rivals in power the great Roman Republic of Marcellus Aemilius and Numerius Aureolus. Yet, we have only recently escaped the chaos of two consecutive Emergency Diet sessions. By his assured handling, Chancellor Fredericus has brought us back to an even keel. There is much to be done - the Reich must be defended, the Horse Lords to be repelled, Moscow to be taken and Jerusalem returned to Christendom. Quite frankly, we would be @#$%^&!!!ing fools to risk all that by constitutional shenanigans motivated only by personal ambition and the desire to grab power.

[FactionHeir]

Some of your words ring true, Siegfried von Kastilien, yet the latter part of your colorful speech seems to attempt to divert attention from this most important matter to other pressing ones, which certainly will also have time to be debated on this diet floor in due time, without delaying our actions as a whole at all as there is a set period for the diet by law which cannot be cut short even if we wanted to.

You are correct that CA 11.1 might be somewhat to broad, but certainly you can see Duke Scherers intentions in it as not trying to question the authority of every member of the diet but rather ensure that there are legal proceedings in place to facilitate succession quickly?

If it thus pleases you, I am certain my Duke would not mind rewording it to read what it did originally and in addition put forward a second CA that covers other grey areas.

While I still question the legality of your claim to the throne, I am willing to second your CA 11.2.

I will not support your edict however, which makes the position of emperor open to a popularity vote of the diet rather than of the heads of houses, who collectively represent their electors to ensure that each houses vote is treated equally.

If you truly wished to ensure authority and dispel any claims against your alleged position, I would like to think that you would urge every single one of your followers to support and vote for a charter amendment or edict that enables a council to examine your claims and either confirm or dispose you as emperor of our holy roman empire.

However, if you are uncertain yourself of your claims...

[TinCow]

Prinz Elberhard, I have already proclaimed my loyalty to Kaiser Siegfried and I will not say otherwise now. If evidence emerges that shows that the throne was obtained illegally or dishonestly, my loyalty may rightfully be owed to another. However, since that has not yet happened, I acknowledge Siegfried as my Kaiser and will pay proper homage to him.

That said, I feel the need to correct an error in your statements. You said that the we have a subtle separation of powers and that if we allow one part "to take control of another, then we risk destroying that separation of powers." I must point out that your own father, Kaiser Henry, breached these separation of powers when he gave himself the ability to appoint a Duke when a Duke resigns. This is already a clear violation of the separation of powers that you so rightfully proclaim. If the Ducal Houses are to be truly independent from Imperial control, surely a Duke should be allowed to appoint his own heir, no matter the reasons behind the succession. My Prinz, if you truly believe in the separation of powers, I assume you will thus make an active effort to correct this corruption that was perpetrated by your father.

[Edited out a section that was simply due to bad eyesight. My bad.]