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Thread: Don't Mess With Old Marines

  1. #1
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Don't Mess With Old Marines

    In Florida a couple days ago a 71 year old former Marine shot two criminals robbing a subway, killing one, after they robbed the store then tried to force him into the bathroom after getting his wallet.

    In short, a clean shoot, the model of why citizens should be allowed to carry concealed guns.

    Some News Links:
    A Summary

    A more in-depth piece.
    According to a police statement, :Arrindell ordered Lovell to hand over his wallet. He intentionally dropped it on the floor and refused to pick it up, saying he was afraid. That's when Arrindell ordered him into the women's restroom.

    "The victim believed he would be executed and when he noticed [Arrindell] distracted ... reached behind his back, removed his loaded .45 caliber handgun from his holster and fired seven rounds," the statement said.

    Arrindell was struck twice — once in the head and once in the stomach — and collapsed. Officers found him face down, wearing sunglasses and a bandanna, with a gun near his left hand. Gadson was hit in the chest and ran from the store. Police dogs found him in the hedges of a nearby office building and bank.
    And, as is usual for shootings like this, the criminal's relations come out and said how their kids were turning their lives around, had never harmed any, etc.

    But what I'm looking for is insight on how other countries would have handled this - in Florida the Marine was never charged, and won't be. He had a permit for carrying a concealed handgun, also.

    Would authorities in some countries take issue with his shooting the criminals and charge him with murder?

    CR
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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    We don't even get those kinds of robberies around here you know. The law's pretty strict on "excessive use of force" though, and concealed carry Right Out far as I know.

    And you wouldn't believe how few people get shot here every year, in spite of the country being rotten with guns.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Would authorities in some countries take issue with his shooting the criminals and charge him with murder?
    yes of course they would over here .
    Well actually no , they might if you shot a robber , then beat them with a stick until you fracture lots of bones including the the skull , then drag them across the road and dump them over a wall , then return to your house for more ammunition and go out and shoot them again just to make sure , but that sort of thing ends with a charge of manslaughter not murder .

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    We don't even get those kinds of robberies around here you know. The law's pretty strict on "excessive use of force" though, and concealed carry Right Out far as I know.
    You're not answering the question. Suppose it did happen.

    Tribesy, what are you referring to?

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Medical Welshman in London. Senior Member Big King Sanctaphrax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    If, in the UK, you killed someone who was actually in the process of robbing you at gunpoint, I think you'd be ok.
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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    I think you could be charged in Australia, but the sentence would probably be less.

    Also you would be charged for carrying a concealed weapon.
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    Member Member KafirChobee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    The gun law in Florida is one can shoot someone if they just feel threatened by them - imagine. So, this ex-Marine will probably be given a medal - justly so.

    Seven shots and only hit 'em three times? Sure he was a Marine, not a sailor?
    Last edited by KafirChobee; 07-01-2007 at 04:22.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Seven shots and only hit 'em three times? Sure he was a Marine, not a sailor?
    A 71 year old sailor couldnt even pull the trigger

    Seems to be a lot of stories lately about ex Marines doing these type of things. OOOoooo rah
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Tribesy, what are you referring to?
    Ah sorry Rabbit I thought you wanted an example of what happens to people in other countries who shoot robbers when you asked...Would authorities in some countries take issue with his shooting the criminals and charge him with murder?
    .
    What I am refering to is an example of what happens in this country .
    Though of course the example I use is slightly misleading (would you expect any less of me ) .
    Such a miscarriage of justice is of course open to appeal , at the appeal the manslaughter charge was overturned .

  10. #10

    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Semper.

    And all that. Stupid Jarheads.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    An unnecessary loss of life. Over what, a few bucks?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    An unnecessary loss of life. Over what, a few bucks?
    Quote Originally Posted by article
    The victim believed he would be executed
    I don't know, but that guy was there and it's usually too late when you can know for sure. I'd say if you rob a store with a gun in your hand, you have to expect to get shot., it's a logical consequence.

    I think here you'd at least be charged for carrying a gun though self defense should be allowed(if in doubt, just carry a throwing axe or so).


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    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Every shooting in New York State, even those by law enforcement, is considered by law to be a homicide till the particulars of the case are brought before a Grand Jury to determine if a possible crime has been committed.

    This appears to be a legal case of self-defense as defined in the Penal Code, which includes defense of a third person also; Sec. 53a-19 first paragraph.

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    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    I don't know, but that guy was there and it's usually too late when you can know for sure. I'd say if you rob a store with a gun in your hand, you have to expect to get shot., it's a logical consequence.

    I think here you'd at least be charged for carrying a gun though self defense should be allowed(if in doubt, just carry a throwing axe or so).
    agreed.

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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by KafirChobee
    Seven shots and only hit 'em three times? Sure he was a Marine, not a sailor?
    The old marine probably has double vision so the other 3 shots went into the two illusionary doubles, which means he really missed only once. He's 70, so for that we can cut him some slack.
    This space intentionally left blank

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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Here in Cali, a young Marine got punk'd with his own weapon, when he tried another in a series of armed robberies. The store clerk won't be charged.

    ...An alleged co-defendant, Navy Corpsman Quintel Antonio Brooks, pleaded not guilty Thursday to participating in four of the robberies on June 10.

    Brooks, 19, was a lookout who held a BB gun on store employees and customers while Smith grabbed money from cash registers...
    2 ironies reported on the TV last night: the 2 perps where due to rotate (for the first time) to Iraq in November 2007, and one of the store clerks is an Iraqi-American.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Well Kukri , it looks like some people will try anything to avoid getting sent to Iraq .

  18. #18
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Hehe, Tribesman; funny you said that; the 'comments' section of the local newspaper is full of comments echoing yours - and others decrying the low pay of USMC Lance Corporals, both of which OBVIOUSLY led these young men to pursue a life of crime.

    I just wonder if the locals will turn them over to the Corps for prosecution, or run them through civilian court.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    An unnecessary loss of life. Over what, a few bucks?
    You'll notice that he gave up his wallet without a fight. It was only after the crooks got the wallet and ordered him into the restroom that he fought back. Now why would they have wanted him to be in the restroom? They already had what they were looking for.

    (if in doubt, just carry a throwing axe or so)
    Is carrying throwing axes more legal than carrying guns?

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Is carrying throwing axes more legal than carrying guns?
    I have no idea actually, but a normal axe is considered a tool, if you could throw that...
    AFAIK muskets made before 1871(foundation of Germany) are legal, but it could be hard to find some that still work.
    Last edited by Husar; 07-02-2007 at 00:45.


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  21. #21

    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    AFAIK muskets made before 1871(foundation of Germany) are legal, but it could be hard to find some that still work.
    Damn that rules out the Henri Peiper, I will have to bring the India pattern instead .

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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    But what I'm looking for is insight on how other countries would have handled this
    If we overlook the fact that in the UK it could not be legal for him to be carrying a concealed handgun (unless some very special circs apply) I suspect the answer is roughly the same as in New York. Namely that it would be investigated as an unlawful killing, and the case would turn on whether the force used was reasonable. I'm no expert on criminal law but two robbers, one armed, robbing one pensioner, suggests that opening fire was reasonable. Obviously if he downed them, reloaded, walked up, and shot them again, that might be a different story. But he didn't.

    For UK bashing purposes though you will be delighted to hear that by carrying any sort of weapon (both things that are weapons, such as a cosh, and things that are not weapons but that you intend to use as a weapon, such as a hammer,) grandad would have been committing an offence.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    Hehe, Tribesman; funny you said that; the 'comments' section of the local newspaper is full of comments echoing yours - and others decrying the low pay of USMC Lance Corporals, both of which OBVIOUSLY led these young men to pursue a life of crime.

    I just wonder if the locals will turn them over to the Corps for prosecution, or run them through
    Harsh justice, isn't it?

  24. #24
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    LoL. Fine job of editing Pannonian. I shudda known better. :)
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    If we overlook the fact that in the UK it could not be legal for him to be carrying a concealed handgun (unless some very special circs apply) I suspect the answer is roughly the same as in New York. Namely that it would be investigated as an unlawful killing, and the case would turn on whether the force used was reasonable. I'm no expert on criminal law but two robbers, one armed, robbing one pensioner, suggests that opening fire was reasonable. Obviously if he downed them, reloaded, walked up, and shot them again, that might be a different story. But he didn't.

    For UK bashing purposes though you will be delighted to hear that by carrying any sort of weapon (both things that are weapons, such as a cosh, and things that are not weapons but that you intend to use as a weapon, such as a hammer,) grandad would have been committing an offence.
    So basically it's illegal to defend yourself? Your hands are illegal to have on you, if you intend to use them as weapons, eh?
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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    I some states the state monopoly on legitimate violence is taken fairly seriously you know. It also happens that some states, unlike others, actually have decent enough law enforcement that the citizenry need not engage in an arms race with the criminals, which has the bonus effect of not having all that many handguns in circulation and thus available to the criminal element as well.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    I some states the state monopoly on legitimate violence is taken fairly seriously you know. It also happens that some states, unlike others, actually have decent enough law enforcement that the citizenry need not engage in an arms race with the criminals, which has the bonus effect of not having all that many handguns in circulation and thus available to the criminal element as well.
    Yes, but if you happen to come across an armed criminal, are you supposed to die for the state monopoly on violence instead of defending yourself with anything that is available?
    The state monopoly on violence might not exactly be the grand idea you'd be willing to give your life for.


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  28. #28
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    The funny thing here is that our armed criminals rather rarely use their weapons for more than intimidation you know...
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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  29. #29
    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    So basically it's illegal to defend yourself? Your hands are illegal to have on you, if you intend to use them as weapons, eh?
    I'm not sure that body parts are covered.

    Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (Section 1(1)) states that:

    'Any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, the proof whereof shall lie with him/her, has with him/her in a public place any offensive weapon, shall be guilty of an offence.
    From the guidance manual for crown prosecutors:

    'Offensive weapon' is defined as any article made or adapted for use to causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use. The courts have been reluctant to find many weapons as falling within the first limb of the definition and reliance should usually be placed upon the second. On that basis it must be shown that the defendant intended to use the article for causing injury.

    Lord Lane, CJ, in R v Simpson (C), 78 Cr. App. R. 115, identified three categories of offensive weapons: those made for causing injury to the person, i.e. offensive per se; those adapted for such a purpose; and those not so made or adapted, but carried with the intention of causing injury to the person.

    In the first two categories, the prosecution do not have to prove that the defendant had the weapon with him for the purpose of inflicting injury: if the jury are sure that the weapon is offensive per se, the defendant will only be acquitted if he establishes lawful authority or reasonable excuse.
    It's pedantic of me, but its not basically illegal to defend yourself, its basically illegal to have a weapon with you in a public place.

    It seems to me there's no real room for middle ground on this one. With the possible exception of CS sprays (illegal in the UK as they are made for causing injury), there is no point in allowing people to carry weapons to defend themselves unless they are allowed to carry guns (would it have helped our 71 year old ex marine if he had had a knuckleduster in his pocket? No.) I would certainly feel less safe, overall, if, say, it was legal to carry a baton or something, but not a gun. I'm not sure a baton would do me much good if a gang wanted to rob me, and I am sure it would do my wife no good at all (obviously all thugs would take advantage of the ability to carry weapons legally, and be tooled up at all times). So either you have to allow concealed handguns or ban the lot, when at least you can bust thugs if you catch them carrying.

    Obviously, in the UK, that means ban the lot. I've made it this far without feeling this puts me in much danger.
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  30. #30
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Don't Mess With Old Marines

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    The funny thing here is that our armed criminals rather rarely use their weapons for more than intimidation you know...
    Yes, and I don't feel like I'm in great danger because I don't carry a machinegun around. I'm just thinking about the rare cases where someone actually wants to kill you, though I have to say I cannot think of any such incident where the victim survived or killed the attacker in self-defence.
    Best thing is probably to wear a ballistic suit at all times, that way you won't need much in terms of offensive power...oh wait, that's not allowed either.
    You could however go medieval and wear chainmail outside while in a pub, when you're shopping with the family or while you're swimming at the beach.


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