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  1. #1
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libby's sentance commuted

    My take on the situation is that Fitzgerald was digging, Libby knew exactly what was going on (i.e., Rove and Cheney ordering the spread of info), Libby stonewalled and lied, Fitzgerald knew darn well that Libby was doing so, and so he used the oldest prosecutor's trick in the book: Talk or I'm sending you to jail.
    Your take is obviously so wrong. Armitage was the leaker case closed. No crime nothing to investigate. Wilson lied about everything. How can you deny it? He doesnt. You got one thing right. He was digging alright.

    .then pick out the bits that are true and seperate them from those that are not true .
    What was true? That there never should have been an investigation?
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libby's sentance commuted

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    Default Re: Libby's sentance commuted

    What was true?

    Hey Gawain , a little bit of advice for ya , if you write things that are clearly not true and insist that they are factual it makes you look very silly .

  4. #4
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libby's sentance commuted

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Your take is obviously so wrong. Armitage was the leaker case closed. No crime nothing to investigate. Wilson lied about everything.
    In your version of events, Gawain, we are required to believe that the Republican-appointed prosecutor, Republican judge, three-judge Republican appeals court and the jury were all either conniving or idiots. And they all must have had some sort of anti-Bush axe to grind. Does this seem likely?

    As for your assertions about "case closed," I don't really agree, but I don't stand a chance of changing your mind once you've dug in your heels. You can go on about how Joe Wilson is the worst man in the world, but I don't see that it's salient to the case.

    Aren't you one of the guys who believes that the CIA is full of lefty traitors, anyway?

    -edit-

    Another thought -- if you believe the entire case is a load of Gah!, then why aren't you angry that Bush only commuted the sentence, rather than issuing a pardon? Here's the logical train of thought:

    There's an incoherence at the heart of the administration's case. It says that Libby's sentence was excessive. But technically, it's not. It's only excessive if you think it was a politicized prosecution and never should have happened in the first place. But if you believe that, then Libby deserves an outright pardon. The administration's middle ground can't hold. A pardon would have been better, and more defensible.
    Last edited by Lemur; 07-06-2007 at 01:21.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Libby's sentance commuted

    Aren't you one of the guys who believes that the CIA is full of lefty traitors, anyway?
    Well they must be , their facts contradict Gawains "FACTS" , maybe the CIA is Clintons fault , but then again Bush set up a commitee , and their facts contradict Gawains "FACTS" too . Hey maybe Bush is Clintons fault too .

    But you gotta admit this bit is just so damn funny......
    Your take is obviously so wrong. Armitage was the leaker case closed. No crime nothing to investigate. Wilson lied about everything.
    ...then again I think he is actually being serious

  6. #6
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libby's sentance commuted

    Here's a nice, broad summation of how the NeoCons and the law fall out.

    Lewis Libby -- though represented by the most expensive and highly-regarded criminal defense lawyers in the country -- was convicted by a conscientious jury of four felony counts. Conrad Black -- the Canadian neoconservative heir and right-wing financier and close associate of Richard Perle -- has been indicted (by Pat Fitzgerald) and currently stands trial on charges of defrauding his investors of $85 million, obstruction of justice and similar alleged crimes.

    A World Bank committee just "concluded that [Paul Wolfowitz] was guilty of breaking rules barring conflicts of interest." And one DoD official -- former Doug Feith underling Larry Franklin -- has already pled guilty to passing classified information to AIPAC officials and the Israeli government, and the two AIPAC officials are to stand trial for multiple espionage-related felonies.

    Yet in each of these cases -- where wrongdoing has been established (in the cases of Libby, Franklin and Wolfowitz) or where federal prosecutors with the Bush DOJ have concluded there is overwhelming evidence of guilt (in the case of the AIPAC officials and Black) -- neoconservatives jointly proclaim their fellow neocons to be entirely innocent and to be the real victims.

    Apparently Libby is in funds, 'cause he wrote a check today for his quarter-million dollar fine. It's nice to have friends, isn't it?

  7. #7
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libby's sentance commuted

    And just so you know, here's what happens to ordinary people when they petition for commutation. Three standards are laid out. Libby didn't meet any of them. It's good to have friends.

    In March 2003, for the first and only time in my life, I went to the West Wing of the White House. At that time, I was representing a man who was scheduled to be executed by the federal government in less than three weeks. I had filed a request for commutation, asking the President to commute the death sentence to a sentence of life without the possibility of release. Department of Justice rules require that such a request be filed with the Office of the Pardon Attorney in DOJ. Although I had filed the request in December, we had not yet received any response.

    While the commutation request was pending, I asked then White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales if he would meet with me to discuss the case. (I knew that the White House Counsel was ultimately responsible for making a recommendation to the President on my request.) To my great surprise, he agreed and invited me to a meeting in his office. We met for over an hour. I was allowed to present my argument in some detail, and I answered many questions from Judge Gonzales. I was quite impressed that Judge Gonzales had obviously read my written submissions and had already given the case some thought.

    Judge Gonzales told me three things about President Bush's policy in considering requests for commutation. First, that President Bush would not consider commutation if he believed that the case had already received full and fair consideration by the jury and the courts who heard the case. Second, that the President would not consider the request until he had a recommendation from the Department of Justice. Finally, he said that the President would not act on any request for commutation until all judicial avenues in the case had been exhausted.

    Just thought you might be interested in what this White House claimed about the commutation process.
    Last edited by Lemur; 07-06-2007 at 04:21.

  8. #8
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libby's sentance commuted

    It's all quite obvious, isn't it?


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  9. #9
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libby's sentance commuted

    Pat Buchannon lays out three possible scenarios. Note that number 3 is almost exactly what I sketched in post 54. Also note that Gawain's everyone-is-evil-or-an-idiot schema is nowhere to be found. G-man, I know you won't listen to me, but I also know you respect Buchannon. We can't all be delusional idiots.

    But why did Bush rush to spare him even one day behind bars?

    Three explanations come to mind.

    The first is that Bush capitulated to intense pressure from the neoconservative commentariat led by The Wall Street Journal and The Weekly Standard.

    To these folks, Scooter is no felon. Scooter is a hero. In the neocon network, Scooter was the pivot man in the veep's office moving the cherry-picked intel on Saddam's WMD, Saddam's nukes, Saddam's ties to 9/11 and al Qaeda to a collaborationist press as determined as he was to smash Iraq and Iran, secure Israel and control the Middle East.

    So what if Scooter lied to cover up the White House campaign to carve up Joe Wilson? If Scooter did it, good Straussian that he is, he did it for the highest of motives in the noblest of causes.

    To the neocons, Scooter is, in Ahmed Chalabi's phrase, "a hero in error," one of the boys. And as they saved him from the slammer, they will not stop until they secure him a pardon -- to which Bush has now opened the door.

    The second explanation is that Vice President Cheney went to Bush, closed the door, and asked, as a personal favor, that he spare Cheney's faithful friend and loyal aide the disgrace and pain of prison. And Bush did this distasteful and shameful act at the behest of a vice president to whom he feels an immense debt.

    The third explanation is that Cheney, and perhaps the president, fears that if Scooter goes to prison, and is staring at disgrace and 30 months away from friends and family, he may think he has been abandoned by people whose secrets he kept at the cost of reputation and freedom. An idle mind being the devil's workshop, Scooter might sit down and write a book, or phone "Bulldog" Fitzgerald and tell him he just remembered something.

    Whatever the motives of President Bush, this was a radical not a conservative act. Whoever pressured Bush to wipe out Scooter's sentence was more a friend of Scooter than a friend of Bush. For the president has damaged his reputation as a just ruler, so Scooter could elude what other men have to face.

    Will the student deferments for these fellows never end?

    The act reeks of cronyism. The perception is that Scooter Libby got preferential treatment, a get-out-of-jail-free card because he was chief of staff to Cheney and assistant to Bush.

    That perception is correct.

    Because of whom he knew, Scooter got preferential treatment, big-time. The Godfather took care of the consigliere.

  10. #10
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libby's sentance commuted

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    In your version of events, Gawain, we are required to believe that the Republican-appointed prosecutor, Republican judge, three-judge Republican appeals court and the jury were all either conniving or idiots. And they all must have had some sort of anti-Bush axe to grind. Does this seem likely?

    As for your assertions about "case closed," I don't really agree, but I don't stand a chance of changing your mind once you've dug in your heels. You can go on about how Joe Wilson is the worst man in the world, but I don't see that it's salient to the case.

    Aren't you one of the guys who believes that the CIA is full of lefty traitors, anyway?

    -edit-

    Another thought -- if you believe the entire case is a load of Gah!, then why aren't you angry that Bush only commuted the sentence, rather than issuing a pardon? Here's the logical train of thought:

    There's an incoherence at the heart of the administration's case. It says that Libby's sentence was excessive. But technically, it's not. It's only excessive if you think it was a politicized prosecution and never should have happened in the first place. But if you believe that, then Libby deserves an outright pardon. The administration's middle ground can't hold. A pardon would have been better, and more defensible.
    He won't answer that question - at least he declined to do so yesterday when I asked him:

    So Gawain, since,...

    ...what is your take on POTUS only taking away the jail-time by commutation, rather than the full exoneration that a pardon would give?
    I don't look to embarrass Gawain; heck he and I go way back, and I consider him an honored friend, even when we disagree.

    And I'm not out to hang Bush, either. I'm just trying to see the consistency here. Is there any? If Scooter partially gets off, shouldn't that General get the same consideration? If not, why not? Otherwise, it looks like: if you're part of Bush Inc., you're golden, the boss will take care of you, personally. If you're not, too bad, so sad, you're mad, I'm glad.

    That's Cosa Nostra stuff, isn't it? Not the kind of thing we elect a CinC for.

    Put simply: if Libby did nothing wrong, then pardon him. And re-look at all federal convictions for perjury and obstruction of justice given in the past 6 and a half years.

    And if Wilson and Fitzgerald lied under oath or obstructed or perverted justice, order their prosecution.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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