Release of Alan Johnston

**Geoffrey S** · 07-04-2007, 19:47

Originally Posted by Fragony

It was me who raped his daughter.

Isn't it obvious? Never give in, only opens the door for more demands.

So that the right of the strongest always prevails? So that opposites will never concede and never progress beyond bickering (or worse)? So that misguided politicians can keep up failing policies? Sorry, I don't buy that view.

Hamas doesn't recognise the state Israel. Perhaps if they started seeing Israel as something which could be negotiated with, negotiations which could help them, they would find recognition to be more benificial. It would be.

**Fragony** · 07-04-2007, 19:54

Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

So that the right of the strongest always prevails? So that opposites will never concede and never progress beyond bickering (or worse)? So that misguided politicians can keep up failing policies? Sorry, I don't buy that view.

Hamas doesn't recognise the state Israel. Perhaps if they started seeing Israel as something which could be negotiated with, negotiations which could help them, they would find recognition to be more benificial. It would be.

Well as it seems I just charged into a common-sense wall called Pannonian. Extremily good point he has. I am of to mommy for now.

**Tribesman** · 07-04-2007, 20:29

Isn't it obvious? Never give in, only opens the door for more demands.

There was this bloke over this way that used that line for years , in fact there was a stage that if you took the words "Never" and "No" out of the English language he wouldn't have had much to say at all .
You may have seen him on the news recently , sitting , talking , laughing and working with the very people that he said he would never talk with .

**Watchman** · 07-04-2007, 22:20

Radicals have a curious tendency to start de-radicalizing after they become Establishement. Didn't that happen with the PLO too, way back ?

**Papewaio** · 07-05-2007, 00:37

I can see Hamas having gained power wishing to cement its legitimacy by going the next step into talks. It would be the same way Israel and Ireland dealt with the British and how the IRA in Northern Ireland went from bombers to bureaucrats. The allure of power and an easier road to it tends to win the day... bombing trains is one thing, da gravy train is da bomb.

The biggest threat would be a real-IRA Hamas equivalent. So it depends on how much sway the political arm of Hamas has over the military arm so that it can crack down on any militant uprising internally or externally.

**Geoffrey S** · 07-05-2007, 08:14

Originally Posted by Fragony

Well as it seems I just charged into a common-sense wall called Pannonian. Extremily good point he has. I am of to mommy for now.

Not quite certain what you mean? I do like Pannonian's point though.

**Fragony** · 07-06-2007, 09:16

Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

I do like Pannonian's point though.

I liked it, but with some further thinking, military agreement is too short-term a solution, we need a political solution. There is no way there can be a political solution as long as either party doen't recognise the other. Panonian is right, it's a much better situation, but isn't that the situation wether Israel talk with them or not?

**Geoffrey S** · 07-06-2007, 09:58

Another interesting article here.

At the very least, there is a more unified group to deal with than before, a group that actually commands some respect among the people it represents and can actually do things. If there's one thing history shows it's that extremist fringe groups of all kinds actively taken into the mainstream find their goals can be served far better when they are more moderate, and are influenced as much themselves as their opposites are; early environmentalists in for instance Holland spring to mind. I just hope either side takes the oppurtunity presented.

**Fragony** · 07-06-2007, 10:34

Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

Another interesting article here.

At the very least, there is a more unified group to deal with than before, a group that actually commands some respect among the people it represents and can actually do things. If there's one thing history shows it's that extremist fringe groups of all kinds actively taken into the mainstream find their goals can be served far better when they are more moderate, and are influenced as much themselves as their opposites are; early environmentalists in for instance Holland spring to mind. I just hope either side takes the oppurtunity presented.

It at least seems like Hamas is showing goodwill, but how long before the moderate elements in Hamas are overthrown in the same fashion as Fatah, I doubt it's all honey and daisy's within the ranks. I give it 2 months at most.

**Pannonian** · 07-06-2007, 11:10

Originally Posted by Fragony

It at least seems like Hamas is showing goodwill, but how long before the moderate elements in Hamas are overthrown in the same fashion as Fatah, I doubt it's all honey and daisy's within the ranks. I give it 2 months at most.

The model response to that fear is the British response to the IRA in the 90s, which was to strengthen the central command who were willing to talk while marginalising the fringes who weren't. We made gestures way out of proportion to what the IRA was offering, to show the ranks that engagement worked, resulting in the militants being exiled to the loony fringes where they were either ignored or quietly killed. After 6-7 years of this, the people in Northern Ireland were so used to the peaceful status quo that they had no desire to return to any ideologically-based conflicts, and the former radical groups met with no resistance when they formally dropped the struggle. It was telling that, when the united Northern Ireland assembly finally agreed on its leaders, the only demonstration outside was about a water tax the locals felt was unnecessary. The Middle East will be at peace when the Palestinians riot over a rise in Income Tax.