the first rank that swoons/ spearwall formation bug

**pike master** · 07-07-2007, 05:37

to me it has to be the main culprit behind weak spearwall abilities.

when the enemy infantry charges the line and when they hit the first rank of pikemen or halberdiers fall down dead. it has been explained that this to simulate some realistic hypothesis that certian infantry units should roll or dodge their way in past the pike or halberd points during their charge.

the only problem i have with this is that halberdiers shouldnt be affected at all in this manner and pikes would be at their very best at the start of the battle at stopping any kind of charge. infantry units should have to fight their way in which apparently is happening pretty well after the shield and two hand fix.

so perhaps in a future patch i hope CA will remove the first rank dying effect.

also i wander if you can mod the bug out of the game. what would you need to modify?

**Phog** · 07-07-2007, 05:50

Good question! I observed this also. I just dont get it I suppose. Even if some of the charging men did drop down and roll into the first rank of pikemen not all of the pikes should go down.

Like trying to knock down an Atlas with an Elemental.
There's a MechWarrior analogy for you Mad Cat

- Phog

**rijde** · 07-07-2007, 11:29

Exactly why I'm here also. I reloaded the game to test the 1.02 patch. And the infantry still stagger with this big gap like the vanilla unpatched version.

You all are describing the first wave of infantry attacking/charging and the big bulk of men stalling?

I just don't get why this is in the game. Assuming it's not a bug, I think that the beta tester and the people that pushed for the absurd charging in this game really ruined the game.

The game is a freaking approximation. They need to stop advocating lame mechanics! And they need to stop whining about how powerful cavalry is. Don't like the power of archers, infantry or cavalry, mod the strat files!

This gap and the collision mechanics suck.

**pike master** · 07-07-2007, 14:56

i even ran some test. swiss guard even out of spearwall still lose their first ranks when fighting swordsmen or two handed axe units. any other infantry would lose some units from a charge but spearwall units lose the first rank regardless whether they are in spearwall or not.

**Rebellious Waffle** · 07-08-2007, 00:29

Intriguing. The problem didn't exist in R:TW phalanx formations, I'm certain of that. Whatever bug is causing the problem, it's in original code designed for this specific game...

**WhiskeyGhost** · 07-08-2007, 03:01

it probably doesn't have some sort of value to determine the difference between a spearwall and regular standing when it comes to considering the charge damage from infantry (as apposed to cavalry, which we know causes them death)

**O'Rourke** · 07-08-2007, 06:41

Originally Posted by Rebellious Waffle

Intriguing. The problem didn't exist in R:TW phalanx formations, I'm certain of that. Whatever bug is causing the problem, it's in original code designed for this specific game...

Defiitely, in RTW any unit's front rank(s) hitting the front of a phalanx/spearwall type formation got mauled until the rest of the formation could wade in and engage with their own weapons instead of impaling themselves on 8 feet long spears.

Pike formations in MTW2 are pretty much useless unless low-mid level cavalry charge directly into the spear wall, and even then they take a hit with the charge bonus that most melee cav carry.

**pike master** · 07-08-2007, 18:42

exactly what i am seeing. its not so much the problem of not as many ranks fighting as in rome total war phalanx as it is that enemy units can easily penetrate the spearwall or inflict damage to it during charge. if this were corrected it may give the improvment to pike and halberdier spearwall behaviour that is needed by them.

**zerathule** · 07-09-2007, 13:52

Did you tried charging with really weak troops like peasants ?
In Rome, pikemen where very powerfull even discounting the "phalanx effect". In M2, pikemen suck in terms of stats : thwose swiss guards are like 12/12 no ? compared to the 13/23 or so of the swordsmen, it seems unlikely that they could win a fight ...
Maybe try this : give both units the same stats (even giving a shield bonus to the swiss guard) and see the outcome.

**pike master** · 07-09-2007, 14:44

im thinking its the two handed axe charge that seems so unusual versus spearwall troops. as you can see no contact with the spearwall troops yet the first rank dies anyways.

peasants, swords and spearmen will charge through the spearwall and make contact with spearwall troops right off the bat. i cannot imagine personally charging right off straight into a dense spearwall to get at the troops beyond. even pikemen on pikemen historically approached each other slowly trying to pick and prod their way in. this should be the way any infantry should attack a spearwall. they should have to fight their way in. which units like feudal dismounted knights should have little problem doing.

i know about the visual bug not showing pikes lowered when in fact they are at the start of melee. but the charge issue is most likely the reason why spearwalls are breaking down so quickly.

i have to make corrections to my earlier observations.axes have the same effect on any infantry. and only axemen kill the first rank instantly. all other units charge through the spearwall which may be the more important issue.

**Miracle** · 07-11-2007, 01:10

Originally Posted by mad cat mech

im thinking its the two handed axe charge that seems so unusual versus spearwall troops. as you can see no contact with the spearwall troops yet the first rank dies anyways.

"Skeletal Compensation Factor" may be your culprit:

Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

2Hers are on the whole in the 1.25 - 1.35 range, all 1H axes/maces 1.2, all swords/pikes/halberds are 1

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...4&postcount=39

**pike master** · 07-11-2007, 15:12

wow! CA is gonna overhaul spearwall units for patch 1.3. i cant believe it.

its in a CA discussion thread on tw.com

**Miracle** · 07-11-2007, 19:11

If you mean this thread, that's not exactly true:

Originally Posted by Caliban

The 1.3 patch shipping with kingdoms (and released at some stage) is purely a compatibility patch to allow both med2 users and kingdoms users play mp battles online without any freaky results.
You will be happy to know that the pike units in kingdoms have been overhauled, their speed has been increased and they now wield their weapons correctly and we have also re-balanced their stats.

Still no word on spearwall units in general, but nonetheless it's still good news.