Shogun II Total War

[Tomisama]

It is TRUE!!!

Shogun 2

http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/topic/71673

http://pc.ign.com/articles/109/1093664p1.html

[gaelic cowboy]

I just died an got reincarnated

[Gregoshi]

I have to admit I'm not that crazy about the hero units unless they do it just right - like giving morale/attack bonuses to nearby units (or something like that) rather than a one man killing machine. However, I liked the emphasis on simplification (might help the AI), immersion/atmosphere, the return of seasons(!!!), the return of Sun Tzu, etc. Lots of on battlefield units (56,000??!), sounds, graphics/art are all fine, but there has to be a good game to go along with it or it is nothing more than an interactive screen saver. I guess we'll have to stay tuned for more details.

I have to bang my head against the wall when reading some of the reactions to the announcement at the official forums in the link provided by Tomisama. I can understand not being thrilled about Japan (I've been there but the greatness of the game overrode that), but those that simply say "it's too small" I don't get. Conquering the whole map is the whole map regardless of the "size". "Too few units"? How many do you REALLY use when you play those TW games with hundreds? Oh well, that's their problem.

I'm excited and optimistic for the present.

[caravel]

I have to bang my head against the wall when reading some of the reactions to the announcement at the official forums in the link provided by Tomisama. I can understand not being thrilled about Japan (I've been there but the greatness of the game overrode that), but those that simply say "it's too small" I don't get. Conquering the whole map is the whole map regardless of the "size". "Too few units"? How many do you REALLY use when you play those TW games with hundreds? Oh well, that's their problem.

I've never understood such people either. Having a crapload of units and a huge map does not make it a good game - it's impossible to tell some people this though. When I bought Shogun back in 2000, I knew nothing about, and had 0 interest in, Japan, it's history or any kind of medieval/ancient warfare let alone Sengoku Jidai. I think that basically the type of player has changed over the years and many of these people want historical accuracy, a large number of factions and units over the tactical gameplay of the first two games.

It goes without saying that a lot of forumites here at the .org as well as over at the .commie and TWC were waiting for and expecting Rome2 (I was expecting Rome2 myself), so this is probably a big disappointment for them.

[Sp00n]

Fewer units made it the game it was, the multiplayer was more tactical in Shogun than it has been in any of the eras since (medieval 1 was close though), you knew the units better so more tactics had to be used to win games, I play Napoleon online from timeto time and its ok, but its generally just a turkey shoot with a few flanking attempts and skirmishers takeouts, I can recall so many different army types when playing Shogun you never knew really what you would face, people swapped alot.
The horses were very fast also so you had to be aware at all times.
A lot of the people moaning havnt even played the first game, lets just hope they can recreate and improve pon the first one, I hope the heroes arnt like those from warcraft 3 and please let there be online chat.

[A Nerd]

I hope the heroes arnt like those from warcraft 3

I never played warcraft, but I always liked the idea of Kensai. Production was a pain and perhaps unrealistic, but the idea of having them develop similar to the legendary swordsman event in the original STW is interesting. Hopefully the unit will have vulnerabilities; fatigue hampering combat effectivness, vulverable to arrow fire (not like diaymo units in STW, but more along the lines of an individual ND or the like), and perhaps even morale when overwhelmed or when his army has all but been defeated. Might add to traits and upgrades, etc. I think the hero unit sounds interesting, as long as they are kept human and don't become one man army reducing killing machines!

[caravel]

A lot of the people moaning havnt even played the first game

Probably a generalisation but there is some truth in it.

Many, though not all, of those complaining are interested in classical or gunpowder era, mainly European, history - in a nutshell the gameplay could be like RTW vanilla for some people and they wouldn't care so long as there were thousands of units, a huge map and about 30 factions all with anally historically accurate graphics and naming.

[Sp00n]

TBH I'm just uber excited its returning can't wait to roll out the Horse Archers and Warrior Monks again, that and it gives Swoosh a chance to be able to say she beat me at Shogun online :P

[caravel]

Let's just hope CA do a good job.

[Terazawa]

Like Sp00n said, the major appeal of STW2 from a gameplay perspective, putting aside the awesomeness of the story setting, is the compact nature of unit selection. Having a dozen units instead of a hundred means that you have to do 'more with less' so to speak. Micromanagement and the minute details suddenly become more important and decisive to win a battle. People who played STW or MTW1 online know what i mean.

Of course there are other considerations like pace and morale settings, we have to see the demo:) Fast paced battle resolution made the STW formula work, as well as live chat foyer and a hell of a lot of RP between clans and players.

Tera

[gollum]

This is incredible news, i am excited and scared in (large amounts and) equal measures.

I hope that CA follow the path they outline in the IGN article to tight, minimalistic and meaningful strategic and tactical gameplay - with less on diplomacy per se - and lets be honest here, there is no reason for TW to become a paradox or a civilization game; its the ruthless comptetition in strategy and on the battlefield that makes the TW games worthwhile - with really good atmosphere and artwork as it befits to the original. I think that judging by the environments and vastly superior artwise battlefield graphics and presentation in Napoleon, it can be done.

I am however particularly happy because it means that the hundreds of posts of veteran mpers and spers that castigated CA's "the more, the merier" feature approach that drowned MTW, Rome, M2 and Empire in unecessary complexity, both on the battlefield and in the campaign map is abandoned at least for this release, and that a predictable (and the easy commercial route) Rome 2 is not what they've chosen. I feel that long posts and analyses by Puzz3D and other mpers as well as many spers including Asai Nagamasa, Martok and myself over the benefits of Shogun's gameplay are finally done justice - just by the fact that this is realised.

I will finally be able to say to myself that it wasn't for nothing writing all that up, and that it didn't mean nothing to them. Thanks for that CA.

[gollum]

Forgot to mention that, although i haven't wasted my time reading the reactions at the com to the anouncement, i can imagine the tone and content that Gregoshi talks about, and i have to say that i am particularly pleased with STW2 being a reality for this reason. Too small? Too few units? Too little scope? Too few factions? Not interested in Japanese history/samurai? Well sorry guys... tough.. eat mustard :)

I can't count the times that sarcasm, ridiculing and even bullying happened on people that liked the first two games after RTW at the com in particular - that was double for STW due to the "unusual" setting. Its fanboys' turn to swallow some bitterness now. "Revenge is the dish that tastes best served cold". Thanks for that too CA :)

[caravel]

I have my fingers crossed for a "back to basics" approach, though I'm sure the campaign game will be as complex as ever. Battles should be an improvement anyway due to the simplified roster.

[gollum]

Indeed the smaller roster will make the battles more balanced - simply because they are more easy to balance practically and also because they match better the amount of variation in terms of unit roles the TW engine can provide (as experience has shown).

I think that, from my perspective the most important thing would be the relationship of the battlefield to the campaign game. In the original the player's campaign game performance cannot substitute for battlefield performance. Its the only probably TW game that it cannot be played and won easily only by autoresolving because of this. In addition it had a good proportion between how much time you needed to spend on the map and play the battles, unlike newer total wars that the vast majority of your time was spent on the camp map.

In addition, the battle pace, although quick (in resolution, and especially if you made the wrong match ups), was adequate enough not to make you feel that the action escapes your control (like in Rome), or diminish to a crawl (like in M2). The map sizes and the fatigue of the units were optimized to match each - while in MTW the maps were far larger than what fatigue rating units had, which resulted in very very long battles. These sometimes were interesting - but most of the time not.

The secret of STW was that it had a golden cut balance in all aspects and that all aspects blended together with a golden cut balance. Everything was meaninglful and purposeful - there were (mostly) no redundant features. I mean WMs are more popular than the naginata, but in all honesty the Naginata can work on the battlefield just as well as the WMs (in v1.12 anyway), and one can base his army's heavy infantry on them.

Lets hope that CA focuses on those key concepts, even if they do it partially they'll get a game that will be easily far better than anything they've put out, gameplay wise, since 2002.

[Kagemusha]

I guess this thread could shipped to a new home.

[edyzmedieval]

Still, from the perspective of a TW veteran, I am extremely happy with one point - it pushes the "unwanted casuals" away who were amazed by ETW and its shiny graphics, making CA head into a disaster zone.

Elitist, yes, but I want TW to go on for a long time with quality games.

[hoom]

I'm interested but guarded.

Going back to Shogun allows a smaller scope so hopefully they'll be able to make it actually work right.
I really hope they'll rework the campaign map. Lots of good gameplay was lost by the move away from the Risk style map. Stuff like the ability to safely withdraw in the face of a superior enemy.

[NagaoKagetora]

This is great news! STW was an outstanding and very immersive gaming experience imo and I hope they can capture that same essence/spirit of the Sengoku jidai.

[Tony Furze]

While cautiously pleased , I must admit my first reaction was "Oh no! Not again!" I haven't really spent much time with Total War after the demise of my MTW VI and disappointments with Rome Total War.

I just wish they - the developers, game makers- would choose some refreshing new directions to go in. It's beginning to feel like the movie scene: remakes of remakes.

By the way, Shogun Total War (I) is a cracking good game.

[Jef Costello]

I it's any good then this might be what pushes me into getting a new computer :)
I think that the original is an excellent game and basically I would like more of the same with a few new units, a bit more diplomacy, a couple of new units and a few tweaks to the AI.
The idea of Hero units is not a good one, although if they are as expensive and difficult to make as the Kensai then they might not be too unbalancing. I think a hero unit might be better if it was a development from battle skills rather than something you train. For example a five star general could become a hero unit, the costs and training could be to do with building some kind of temple. which would also place a limit on the number of heroes possible.

[Martok]

I'm interested but guarded.

That's me as well, although I think I'm more guarded than interested. My love for the original game notwithstanding, my experiences with Rome and Empire have left a very bad taste in my mouth, and I've all but lost faith in CA at this point.

Asai Nagamasa has already listed most of the reasons I'm skeptical about a Shogun sequel. In addition to the ones he's mentioned, I would also add that I'm really not thrilled with CA/Sega continuing to make their games Steam-exclusive. I've not had the greatest experience with Steam, plus I'm opposed to publishers who are greedy short-sighted dumb enough to sign *any* sort of exclusive deal with any DD service.


Don't get me wrong: I love the period, I like that CA is returning to a smaller "theater" (which they should've been doing all along IMO), and I like that it should be better balanced this time around. However, their track record the last 6 years doesn't leave me optimistic.

[Tony Furze]

Hi, Martok.

There are so many other "small theaters" of war pre- say 1800 which could have been chosen. This narrow focus and re-releasing what the modders have already covered is quite alarming. I'd like to see something actually creative from the "Creative" Assembly.

[Royce]

I'm excited about Shogun ll I really enjoyed Shogun and the time period. I just hope that Castles can be defened by the garrisoned troops and not just a waiting game inside until a hole is blown in the wall. If they make it like RTW then I think this will be a great TW Game.

[caravel]

There are so many other "small theaters" of war pre- say 1800 which could have been chosen. This narrow focus and re-releasing what the modders have already covered is quite alarming. I'd like to see something actually creative from the "Creative" Assembly.

I think CA are out of original ideas - which is hardly surprising.

[A Nerd]

I don't mind if CA comes out with settings that have already been covered. As long as the reused material is presented well, I will be pleased. It's all a matter of taste and preference. If they covered a setting that I found disinteresting, then I might have fewer good, optomistic things to say about the game. But that's just me. :)

[Kansuke]

*Bows*

Maybe I see you guys in Totomi soon!

Kansuke.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

*Bows*

Maybe I see you guys in Totomi soon!

Kansuke.

Kansuke!!!!! You back!!!!!!

How you doing? I hope to see you to in Totomi!

[Togakure]

*Bows*

Maybe I see you guys in Totomi soon!

Kansuke.

*bows back*

Toga says hello, and good to see you, Kansuke-san. Indeed, if this turns out well and I am able, I will gladly meet you on that field again.

[Jochi Khan]

*Bows*

Maybe I see you guys in Totomi soon!

Kansuke.

Welcome old friend. It has been a long time.



Jochi