EB in America...

[Marcvs Vipsanivs]

First... Hello! This is my first post, so, I have to thanks to the EB team for the great job they have done, giving a more realistic and acurate world Rome and the "barbarians".


I guess you all have questioned why I said "EB in America"... Is just cause I have a few facts that could "expand" the borders of this game.

Who has seen M2TW, in special the expansion pack, noted that are present brazilian and central america cityes in the late game... And that could be done in EB... I guess...

There are archives (here in brazil) explaining why, and when the Phoenician people colonized this country and others lands more to the south, crossing the lakes of Rio Grande do Sul (almost in Argentina), and then returning to Cartage. All that since 900 BC, or so, until an unknown era, maybe before the roman domination in hispania (the rest of the documents related to this colonization, could been destroyed in the roman era).

A few miles south of my city, São Luís, in the Pensiva Lake, there are miles and miles of wooden ports and foundations of stone houses, back at 1920 historicians found phoenician artifacts (house use), a few spears and arrows.

At Amazonia, prof. Ludwig Schwennhagen colected several inscriptions of kings from Tiro and Sidon (887 BC).

Apollinaire Frot, french historician, said he had colected so many texts of diferent phoenician cityes, that he could created more then dozens of encyclopedias. Some of the texts where a confused tale of Atlantis.

Finaly, great phoenician stone walls are still standing up at the north of the country, some indian tribes still speaks the mixed languages (with phonecian, obvious...) and the Gávea Stone (Pedra Da Gávea) in Rio de Janeiro with the inscription:

Here, Badezir, first son of Jetbaal King of Tiro, have settled


Well... thats all I know... in the hope that might give some ideas!

Marcos

[Lovejoy]

Seriously. I'm pretty sure (actually im 100% sure) the Phoenician people NEVER went to america. And I'm far from a historian. What are your sources?

[Marcvs Vipsanivs]

Well... I have readed a few, and discussed the veracity of this with students and profs of the area. Local historicians confirm this... Some of then have sites and books with it... The two historicians also have a few books about it...

But, those facts are not realy well received by the rest of the cientific comunity... (they are 100% percent idle to). But proves are there.

[bovi]

Skeptical.

[Musopticon?]

Wikipedia lists this issue under "Archeological Forgeries" and compares it to Persian Empress.

Sorry, no deal.

[Swordmaster]

Even so, the map is big enough already.

[Wolfman]

I do know that the Phoenicians possibly sailed around the entire continent of Africa although it would have been a complicated procedure. I have heard that they found Carthaginian pottery in North America and Egyptian pottery in South America . I won"t deny the possibility that the Phoenicians might have sailed to America ( since the vikings did it ) but I won't believe it until there is more historical evidence to back it up. As of now this is just pure speculation. Pseudo History.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I've heard about this. If anyone in the ancient world could have done it, it would have been the Phoenicians. But if they did do it, it would have been a couple trips involving simple trading and not setting up colonies and conquering as the M2TW America is set up for. I heard a rumor once that tobacco was found in an Egyptian tomb. But based on the guy I heard it from and since I heard it nowhere else, I don't know if I believe it.

Besides, including America would mean we would have to remove exsisting provinces in the map.

[Zaknafien]

this is Graham Hancock pseudo-archaeology type of stuff.

[Xehh II]

I was wondering why do CA put province restrictions?

[Sir Edward]

Well I didn't want to cite wikipedia but I can't find the information anywhere else quickly. Marcus Aurelius, here is a link talking about cocoa and tobacco finds in Egyptian tombs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Col...ntact_theories. Pretty weak but interesting.

The thing is that if you add America to the map, it will mean the loss of provinces already in EB (as others have pointed out). And if we do follow this line of evidence I will petition that Lemuria also be added to EB.

[Krusader]

I was wondering why do CA put province restrictions?

As I understand so there is a set amount of memory for RTW to take.
Someone else might have a more detailed or correct answer.

[Marcvs Vipsanivs]

Even myself dont know if there is any true in those archives...

I dont know even if any of the things that I studied where true...

Those are just a few facts I have grouped...

But if they did do it, it would have been a couple trips involving simple trading and not setting up colonies and conquering as the M2TW America is set up for.

Sea crossing trading relations where only avaliable after 1500... I guess if there where no colonization there where no comerce, the indians didnt have that kind of... of... thing.

Besides, including America would mean we would have to remove exsisting provinces in the map.

I was wondering why do CA put province restrictions?

Why those restrictions???

[Reverend Joe]

this is Graham Hancock pseudo-archaeology type of stuff.

You're just afraid of the truth.

[overmind2000]

Removing the question of whether the Phoenicians ever actually made it to the new world, it would be an interesting idea to add parts of South America to the EB map. As for the removal of existing provinces, I think that the provinces that encompass the modern day areas of southern Finland, Sweden, Norway, Ethiopia, Estonia, possibly parts of Russia and Siberia, and the Sahara Desert should be removed. If that isn't enough, then perhaps the map could be cropped to remove the north-western corner where the Atlantic Ocean is and much of the Arabian Sea and the Western Indian Ocean.

It would all take a lot of work to add the new world to EB, but it might be just the thing for when version 1.00 rolls out.

[AntiochusIII]

Remove those regions for America? In the B.C.'s?

Bad idea.

If it's removing those regions to beef up Central Europe or Persia or what-have-you I won't really mind, but America? Even if the Phoenicians did go there I suspect they didn't set up any kind of real colonization efforts that would merit adding American provinces to E.B.

If that argument is allowed then we might as well add in the entirety of Africa. After all, "Hanno" did circumvent the continent did he not?

[Foot]

Removing the question of whether the Phoenicians ever actually made it to the new world, it would be an interesting idea to add parts of South America to the EB map. As for the removal of existing provinces, I think that the provinces that encompass the modern day areas of southern Finland, Sweden, Norway, Ethiopia, Estonia, possibly parts of Russia and Siberia, and the Sahara Desert should be removed. If that isn't enough, then perhaps the map could be cropped to remove the north-western corner where the Atlantic Ocean is and much of the Arabian Sea and the Western Indian Ocean.

It would all take a lot of work to add the new world to EB, but it might be just the thing for when version 1.00 rolls out.

I really, really have to ask this:

WHY?


There is nothing I can do with smilies that will represent my incredulity at this point. We don't even have enough provinces to represent our current map properly! I bet your a roman player, you certainly don't play any of the other interesting factions whose place are in those regions you mention. Basically, you appear to want us to remove accuracy and detail in our current map so we can expand it and add a continent which had no bearing on the actions of Europe and Asia at this point. I mean, India makes more sense than South America!

Foot

[Slim_Ghost]

Gestatae against Jaguar warriors. LOL I can imagine that.

[Moros]

I've heard about this. If anyone in the ancient world could have done it, it would have been the Phoenicians. But if they did do it, it would have been a couple trips involving simple trading and not setting up colonies and conquering as the M2TW America is set up for. I heard a rumor once that tobacco was found in an Egyptian tomb. But based on the guy I heard it from and since I heard it nowhere else, I don't know if I believe it.

Besides, including America would mean we would have to remove exsisting provinces in the map.

Yeah, I've also heard about the tabacco. Not sure if I should believe it tough.

[Zaknafien]

well, supposedly there was a civilization that lived in Antartica before the poles shifted or some such nonsense, and then they migrated north into south america. These were an uber-advanced civlization of god-men and taught the maya and inca all the knew about astrology and technology (and human sacrifice, I would assume). :)

[Spendios]

Semi OT : Were the Azores islands known in Antiquity ?

[Starforge]

As a mostly Roman player I still think adding the Americas would be pointless and non-historical. If M2TW allows for a much larger map - Go east and maybe south rather than west.

Can you imagine the "distance to capital" penalty from Rome to New York?

[Zaknafien]

the M2 map isnt larger, in fact, I think we are even allowed one less province.

[Thaatu]

Removing the question of whether the Phoenicians ever actually made it to the new world, it would be an interesting idea to add parts of South America to the EB map. As for the removal of existing provinces, I think that the provinces that encompass the modern day areas of southern Finland, Sweden, Norway, Ethiopia, Estonia, possibly parts of Russia and Siberia, and the Sahara Desert should be removed.

At least the people inhabiting Finland were of germanic origin, so it makes perfect sense to make it a Sweboz allied state... There isn't much archeological finds left of american cultures from 272 BCE, so planning a faction, or even an eleutheroi city (with garrison) would require a few handfuls of weed.

[Sakkura]

At least the people inhabiting Finland were of germanic origin, so it makes perfect sense to make it a Sweboz allied state...

I think that is an overstatement, but in any case there are finds of Roman artifacts in Finland which shows the connections existing even in antiquity. Such connections to anywhere in America at that time are not known.

Expansion of the map into South and East Asia should certainly have far higher priority than America.

[Musopticon?]

Weren't Finns of Ugric-Baltic origin?

[mAIOR]

I find hard to believe the phoenicians reached America. I mean Trieres aren't really built to survive the climat and tides of deep ocean. Even if they did, they'd never really occupy it. Like some others said it would be small trading enterprises (and not many). Think about the Logistics it required Renaissance men to make the trips a reality and try to place them in the ancient world where naval Technology was much worse.

Cheers...

[Sarcasm]

It's not impossible, just very difficult.

Diogo Botelho, son of the then captain of the fortress of Cochim (modern Kochi, in India) D.António Real, did make the trip from Bassein (modern Vasai-Virar, also in India) to Lisbon aboard a small "fusta" - essentially a small 6-row ship manned by him and 8 black slaves, 2 of which got their heads chopped off in a mutiny.

That's a hell of a long way, much greater than from Africa to America, especially aboard such a fragile ship. But it could be done.

EDIT: Oh, when he arrived the king burned his ship, so no one would know it was possible...hehehe poor bastard.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Weren't Finns of Ugric-Baltic origin?

Finns, yes. Not neccesarily the same as people who were living in Finland... I suppose Thaatu referred to the Skandza region.

[blank]

How about putting the Kingdom of Atlantis in?