EB in America...

[Larkaan]

I find hard to believe the phoenicians reached America. I mean Trieres aren't really built to survive the climat and tides of deep ocean. Even if they did, they'd never really occupy it. Like some others said it would be small trading enterprises (and not many). Think about the Logistics it required Renaissance men to make the trips a reality and try to place them in the ancient world where naval Technology was much worse.

Cheers...

This one's right up my alley... Maritime and Naval history are my thing (from reed and skin canoes to steam, effectively)

In abstract: No, they didn't. Or if they did, it would not have been repeated.

Phoenicians would've been using Pentecosters or other similar galley style vessels such as Biremes, maybe Triremes (trieres, in Greek). Even the big round ships used for grain trade by Greek and Roman times weren't fully envisioned yet.

Those Phoenician galleys, like all galleys up to the end of their major use in the 16th century, where not ocean-crossing craft. Even the relatively fair waters of the Aegean could cause issues, as shown by the number of shipwrecks found. A storm could be their end, easily. You have to remember that these ships are built using a mortise and tennon joint, which is rather flimsy. If the ship is shaking about in rough seas, the water is going to come in and cause catastrophic flooding. There was also no waterproofing, nor was the hull coppered or in some other way treated to prevent rot and the shipworm Teredo navalis from slowly ruining their hull.

For these reasons, most galleys would stick within sight of land, and pull their ships up onto land at night to let them dry out. So, assuming even that these Phoenicians followed the African coast, then jumped over to, say, Cape Verde to repair, refit, and resupply, they still have an aproximately 1500 mile journey with no stops to South America. The modern Trireme reconstruction, the Olympias, can only make about 10 knots under sail. To use that as a base, you can see that the trip would have an entire week period where they were in the middle of nowhere, effectively, and subject to storm and current. If it was cloudy, they could easily get lost, since they lacked compass and sextant. A storm, if they survived it, could blow them way off course, and a current could move them in completely the wrong direction.

But here's the kicker: the prevailing winds go East to West. Getting back, even if they made it, would be practically impossible. Those ships had no effective way to tack into the wind, and would be obliged to row back into the eye of the wind. The Olympias could sustain about 4 knots, so using that, we can see that the trip would take almost 3 weeks to get back (since they'd be rowing into the wind, and thus slowed, any advantage skilled Phoenician rowers would have against the Olympias is negligable) Again, this assumes that there was no storm, current, or clouds. That amount of constant, sustained rowing would drain fresh food and water supplies quickly, and is even enough time for the crew to start getting scurvy if they did not carry proper foods with them. I can't say they'd starve, because I don't know how much food they might carry for such a voyage, but its easy to see why there could be issues with this passage in a vessel with little to no protection to the crew from the elements. Sunstroke and sunburn are issues that would not have been prevelant on the way to South America, but devestating on the trip back, as well.

As for other early arrivals to the Americas, well, the Chinese could (and likely did, there's some strong evidence to support that one) have done it before Columbus. We all know that the Vikings did, but they had Iceland and Greenland to hop from. Pacific Islanders? Easily done, but if they did they didn't leave much of a mark. But Phoenicians? Unlikely, or at least unlikely to be repeated after a few ships tried and never came back. Besides, they were traders... It would be a very expensive, dangerous, and long voyage. The profit would be huge, but would it offset the cost of the trip and the multitude of failures that would likely occur?

[antiochus epiphanes]

agreed with that post.

still though if i could mod the map id sure as hell make it to go to america, that would be sweet!

[Maeran]

You have to remember that these ships are built using a mortise and tennon joint, which is rather flimsy. If the ship is shaking about in rough seas, the water is going to come in and cause catastrophic flooding. There was also no waterproofing, nor was the hull coppered or in some other way treated to prevent rot and the shipworm Teredo navalis from slowly ruining their hull.

Really? I'd always assumed that Homer's regular reference to 'black ships' referred to the use of bitumen as a sealant.

If the Phoenician (without doubt an excellent seafaring people) sailors didn't use any kind of ocean worthy ships, what were the traders along the Atlantic coast using, and why wouldn't the Phoenicians use such vessels?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well, the black ships probably refer to tar.

What exactly would be the problem with using cheaply made vessels designed for carrying lots of cargo quickly from A to B if the distance from A to B isn't all that much and if such voyages mostly, if not only, occured during the quiet times of year? I imagine that people back then would've regarded it as not too much of a risk - one worth taking at least. Even if you did get stuck in a storm you could save yourself by getting rid of the cargo couldn't you?

[Larkaan]

Really? I'd always assumed that Homer's regular reference to 'black ships' referred to the use of bitumen as a sealant.

If the Phoenician (without doubt an excellent seafaring people) sailors didn't use any kind of ocean worthy ships, what were the traders along the Atlantic coast using, and why wouldn't the Phoenicians use such vessels?

They'd use Bitumen, sure. But the wood is not treated, the Bitumen slowly washes away in water (and could not be reapplied to the hull while underway), and because of the mortise and tennon joins water can come in between the planks. Any spot that was not sealed would provide a point for rot to start spreading, and since the ship is underway for two to three weeks straight at one point without a chance to dry out, the rot can progress pretty rapidly. Those were thin planks of wood, after all. Water could easily come in from over the deck of the vessel, and then settle in the hold.

As for the ships along the Atlantic Coast, who are you referring to? The Pheonicians traded all the way up to England (for tin), but they would stay along the coast and pull up to the shore often. If you mean the Gallic and Celtic peoples, they would use clinker-built boats, similar to Viking longboats. They'd be used in the same way as a Phoenician galley, but in further Northern waters they didn't have to worry about Teredo navalis and other barnacly things due to the cold water.

As for your question, Tellos Athenaios, cheap vessels would be more likely to suffer in a crossing... poor fitting joints would quickly flood a vessel, and flimsy construction could snap it in two. A well built Phoenician galley is a very light vessel to begin with. As for the calm times of the year... well, if its too calm, then the trip to South America is slower, prolonging the time that the ship is subjected to all the conditions I've described.

I'm not saying that those ships would fall about after 48 hours in the ocean, but 2 to 3 weeks with no overhaul, no drying out, while being tossed on the open ocean would be very hard on the vessel and the crew.

[Tellos Athenaios]

As for your question, Tellos Athenaios, cheap vessels would be more likely to suffer in a crossing... poor fitting joints would quickly flood a vessel, and flimsy construction could snap it in two. A well built Phoenician galley is a very light vessel to begin with. As for the calm times of the year... well, if its too calm, then the trip to South America is slower, prolonging the time that the ship is subjected to all the conditions I've described.

I'm not saying that those ships would fall about after 48 hours in the ocean, but 2 to 3 weeks with no overhaul, no drying out, while being tossed on the open ocean would be very hard on the vessel and the crew.

Nah, my question was aiming at showing why cheap & cheerful vessels wouldn't have seemed such a bad choice to people back then. Relatively short distances, at the quiet times of year...

[Intranetusa]

As for other early arrivals to the Americas, well, the Chinese could (and likely did, there's some strong evidence to support that one)

You're talking about Gavin Menzie's 1421 theory correct?


That's mostly unproven fiction. The Fleet of the Ming could have gone to America, but there is no evidence that they did. Infact, the vast majority of Chinese and East Asian historians think Gavin Menzies's idea is ridiculous.

[Larkaan]

You're talking about Gavin Menzie's 1421 theory correct?


That's mostly unproven fiction. The Fleet of the Ming could have gone to America, but there is no evidence that they did. Infact, the vast majority of Chinese and East Asian historians think Gavin Menzies's idea is ridiculous.

Its not Menzie that I was thinking of, as far as I can remember. I've read some of his stuff. It's interesting, but like you said, not proven. I wouldn't call it fiction, though... People thought Troy was fiction, after all. The Ming definitely had the ability to do it, though. The Ming Admiral Zheng He had a fleet that would've made Europe collectively soil themselves.

Somewhere I saw a reference talking about Chinese-style stone anchors and/or ballast found off the California coast, geologically and chemically matching Chinese anchors cut from Chinese quarries in the 14th and 15th centuries. I don't know how one geologically and chemically matches a stone to another stone, but I've seen similar comparisons made with, say, marble statues. Unfortunatly, I can't find that reference, and I complete forget where it came from.

The fact of it is the only thing I can remember. Whether an article I bumped across searching through Academic Journals, or a book, or what, I don't know. I had been doing research on JSTOR (an online catalogue of Academic Journal articles) on some Asian history in May, and I might have seen it then, but I can't find it now.

If I'm just crazy and got completely confused, let me know, though...

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well, somewhere in the deep-down hidden sections of my mind there's the faint sound of a ringing bell: IIRC there was this 'Chinese map of America' discovered some time ago which promted the thesis that the Chinese, after the Vikings, were the first to 'discover' the New World?

EDIT: is yer friend: http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgur...%3Dnl%26sa%3DG

[Starforge]

Well, somewhere in the deep-down hidden sections of my mind there's the faint sound of a ringing bell: IIRC there was this 'Chinese map of America' discovered some time ago which promted the thesis that the Chinese, after the Vikings, were the first to 'discover' the New World?

EDIT: is yer friend: http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgur...%3Dnl%26sa%3DG

A map drawn in 1763 supposedly being copied from an earlier one.....

So - if I compose a tune now and claim I copied it from an original Mozart manuscript which I can't produce you'll just take my word for it?

Somehow methinks you're going to have to come up with a wee bit more proof than that especially when the purchaser of the map got the idea from....you guessed it...Gavin Menzies.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I am completely blank as to whether I should believe the stories. Possible? Certainly, many Chines ships were actually of much better quality than the European ships - after all the Chinese ones needed to be able to function again after waiting out a Typhoon or two. But if it actually happened... The fact that it's a copy doesn't make the story more credible either...