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Thread: XL Guide - Serbia

  1. #1

    Default XL Guide - Serbia

    Note: Yes, a lot of this is copied and pasted from guide for Bulgaria. Their starting position in High is very similar, so similar strategies apply. But they have different units, so if you like the location but not their units, choose Bulgaria instead.

    Serbia - High

    Serbia in High is an interesting faction to play, more than early or late. Serbia has a central location on the map, in the middle of everything. It's far enough away from western europe to avoid becoming embroiled in the constant warfare there, and far enough from the conflicts in Asia Minor. And you are just far enough away from the east that when the Mongols come, they will help rather than hinder you, as they draw troops away from you.

    The enemies around you are not very dangerous... the Hungarians are the major threat, but they tend to be distracted between the HRE in the west and the Cumans and Polish on the east. The Bulgarians are small like you and, while you should keep an eye on them, shouldn't cause too much trouble. In short, you are a forgotten corner of the world. Forgotten, but not for long.

    Nearby as well are two very rich provinces - Greece and Constantinople - which are ripe for the plucking and will give you the finances needed to proceed with your world domination plans. The Serbians have some of the best cavalry in the game, along with the normal, decent halberdiers, along with decent bow units. Serbia and Bulgaria are very similar in location and starting strategy, so which you use really depends on whether you prefer excellent cavalry, or infantry armies. Serbia is probably slightly more difficult, given that it is slightly less insulated from Europe and is on the Adriatic instead of the Black sea, but the difference is minor.

    GETTING STARTED

    You start out with not a whole lot of troops, and none of your good ones. But there's no point in trying to rush anyways; no one around poses much of a threat. Your first order of business should be securing the rebel remains of the Byzantine empire, Greece and Constantinople. Both offer rich provinces, both in farming and in commercial possibilities. Constantinople also offers much more than that.. taking it gives you a whole slew of titles to confer, as well as a fortress and instant access to wargalleys. How you get there is up to you. But since you need money anyways, my usual order of business is to build... an emissary. That's right, we're going to do this with bribery. At least you want to bribe Greece... the general there, Leo Sgouros, is definitely worth making use of. He's got 4 command and something like 6 quills of acumen. Save him for Constantinople; you can give him the governorship of Constantinople, and them either the Patriachate (for a 6 star general with something like 8 quills) or the Captain of the Stables (for an 8 star general with fewer quills).

    Bribing Greece is not something you can do right away. You might want to build a couple units of Halberdiers for security at first, and then forget about units for a while. Sorry, Serbia's infantry is decent in early, but by high, regular halberdiers are better. But we need money. If you try to bribe Greece on the second turn, they will want 7000+, which you don't have. You can build a few buildings, you should build a church at least, but don't go overboard.

    If you keep trying every turn, some turn Greece will drop to ~3500 florins and greece will be yours (Constantinople will ask for ~11k florins). You'll need to move some of your troops into greece for pacification, though you can try to spawn some rebellions if you're so inclined as well and get some money that way. Build money buildings in greece - forest clearing, etc. You should be making some money now, ~700 a turn or so. Each turn try to bribe constantinople. Let crusades through if they come; they will soften the big C for you. Each turn they seem to want less, so eventually they will give you what you want.

    Now you've got 3 provinces and a good base for a trading empire... or any other kind of empire you want to build. You should be pulling down ~2000 florins/turn now, enough to do just about anything you want. And so far, you haven't even had a battle. You have all kinds of options... start conquering immediately any direction you want. Build a trading empire and go for strategic conquests around the map. Reunite the Byzantine empire under the Serbian banner. Or various turtling methods... wait until the Mongols arrive and snipe at the Cumans back, moving into the steppes, or the Byzantines, into Asia Minor. Wait until Hungary gets involved in wars with Poland and Germany. The options are pretty open here.

    SPECIAL UNITS

    Voynuk Bladesmen - 'Almost' billmen. In high, these really don't pack enough of a punch, though they have cheaper upkeep than halberdiers. Skip them.

    Vlastela Heavy Cavalry - These pack quite a punch, let me tell you. They have high build requirements, needing an Armorer's Workshop, Horse Breeder's Guild, and Spearmaker's Guild, but they are even better than the High didebuls, better than Chivalric Knights, so one of the better cavalry units in the came. Only things like Lancers and Teutonic Knights are better. Make good use of these.

    Carska Garda - These are your royal cavalry units. Like the Vlastela Cavalry, except smaller units with lower upkeep. You should get the other ones instead. There are early and high carska garda, like the Armenians, but since you're in high, you don't need to worry about that.

    Serbian Cavalry - Your resident Horse Archer replacement. Not as fast, but heavier duty. Similar to Bulgarian Cavalry.

    Voynuk Swordsmen - A decent and dependable, but basic, sword unit requiring only a swordsmith. More or less identical to Feudal Men-at-arms. The best sword unit the serbs get; lean on the bladesmen or halberdiers instead.

    Shielded Bowmen - Decent bow units, and not bad in melee either. Even with arbalesters, you should find a use for these.



    Strange fact: Serbs can build Jinetes, but Bulgarians can't. Also, Serbs get the Barque-Carrack line of ships, while Bulgarians get the Dromon-Gungalley line of ships.

  2. #2
    Wandering Fool Senior Member bamff's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    Quote Originally Posted by lord illingsworth

    SPECIAL UNITS

    Voynuk Bladesmen - 'Almost' billmen. In high, these really don't pack enough of a punch, though they have cheaper upkeep than halberdiers. Skip them.

    Vlastela Heavy Cavalry - These pack quite a punch, let me tell you. They have high build requirements, needing an Armorer's Workshop, Horse Breeder's Guild, and Spearmaker's Guild, but they are even better than the High didebuls, better than Chivalric Knights, so one of the better cavalry units in the came. Only things like Lancers and Teutonic Knights are better. Make good use of these.

    Carska Garda - These are your royal cavalry units. Like the Vlastela Cavalry, except smaller units with lower upkeep. You should get the other ones instead. There are early and high carska garda, like the Armenians, but since you're in high, you don't need to worry about that.

    Serbian Cavalry - Your resident Horse Archer replacement. Not as fast, but heavier duty. Similar to Bulgarian Cavalry.

    Voynuk Swordsmen - A decent and dependable, but basic, sword unit requiring only a swordsmith. More or less identical to Feudal Men-at-arms. The best sword unit the serbs get; lean on the bladesmen or halberdiers instead.

    Shielded Bowmen - Decent bow units, and not bad in melee either. Even with arbalesters, you should find a use for these.



    Strange fact: Serbs can build Jinetes, but Bulgarians can't. Also, Serbs get the Barque-Carrack line of ships, while Bulgarians get the Dromon-Gungalley line of ships.
    Thanks for that Lord Illingsworth - some valuable info there! One quick query re: the "special units" - are these available only once you get to "High" period? If so, do they have any "specials" in early?

    Some guesswork here - would Serbian Cavalry be similar/comparable to Steppe Heavy Cav?

    Final query - just my curiousity really - what colour tunics do the serbs go to battle in?
    Last edited by bamff; 07-25-2007 at 06:11.

  3. #3
    Minion of Zoltan Member Roark's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    Great detail and information, but... I must strongly disagree about the Voynuk Bladesmen.

    Anti-armour, anti-cavalry, good morale. What's the deal, bro? They're more versatile than Halberdiers, methinks.

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    Son of Gloin, Cleaver of Orcs Member Gimli's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    Quote Originally Posted by Roark
    Great detail and information, but... I must strongly disagree about the Voynuk Bladesmen.

    Anti-armour, anti-cavalry, good morale. What's the deal, bro? They're more versatile than Halberdiers, methinks.
    I personally am very much in agreeance with liking Voynuk Blades ( ) , but the HUGE amount of armour on the Halbardiers (who also have the anti-armour and anti-cavalry bonuses) is probably why the Voynuks might get overlooked. In my opinion (well, my style of playing...) I like the Voynuks because they are cheaper, faster, and..... well.... COOL!!!
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    Member Member Haccapelite's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    I started a campaing as the Serbs yesterday (early/normal/GA), and it has been really fun. I conquered Croatia and Hungary from the Hungarians and next I'll have to deal with those backstabbing Cumans. I have only used two of their special units yet, carska garda and voynuk swordsmen, but very soon I get those serbian cavalry They have a real nice unit roster in my opinion, but are those shielded bowmen and voynuk bladesmen only available from high period? And what are their building requirements? Oh and by the way, do Serbs have any other GA goals than homelands and conquest? Because its pretty slow to gain points when the only homeland province is worth one point..

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    Minion of Zoltan Member Roark's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimli
    I personally am very much in agreeance with liking Voynuk Blades ( ) , but the HUGE amount of armour on the Halbardiers (who also have the anti-armour and anti-cavalry bonuses) is probably why the Voynuks might get overlooked. In my opinion (well, my style of playing...) I like the Voynuks because they are cheaper, faster, and..... well.... COOL!!!
    Halberdiers are anti-cavalry in XL??

    I obviously haven't been paying attention...


  7. #7
    Son of Gloin, Cleaver of Orcs Member Gimli's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    Quote Originally Posted by Roark
    Halberdiers are anti-cavalry in XL??

    I obviously haven't been paying attention...

    Yeah, they are, but thats about all they are! (except really really slow!) I think it is kind of a coin toss between the Voynuk blades and the halbardiers. The Voynuks are cheaper and faster versus the halbardiers' armour... If I am flanking some heavily armoured unit, for example, I want my voynuks! If I am charging across a bridge or to fill a hole in a castle wall, it had better be halbardiers!
    Last edited by Gimli; 07-30-2007 at 14:13.
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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    One other thing to note about bladesmen vs halbs- should you expand eastwards enough, you will run into the Mongols. If you end up fighting them open field, I would heavily advise the bladesman, as Halbs will get shot to pieces due to their slowness. Granted, bladesmen will suffer too, but not as badly.
    It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then, the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.

  9. #9

    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    Well, I've never been that impressed with the bladesmen, and the stats seemed to bear me out when i finally looked at them (*), but I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong, so I tried some custom battles to find out if I was hallucinating. I tried three setups - 'base' halberdier vs. bladesmen, 'fully teched' V4/W3/A3 halberdier vs. bladesmen, and a base teutonic knight against base halbs and blades (i actually had both on the field, but put them far apart as defender so that the TK would only be attacking one or the other). To my surprise, they were about equally effective - the halb vs. blades battles could go either way about equally, and both tore up the TKs, the halbs seemed to take a few fewer casualties but it wasn't that much really. It was hard to get the same battle each time since I wasn't in control of both sides, but enough to get a feel for them.

    I still think that the real value of bladesmen is that they are available in early, whereas halbs don't arrive until high. So in an early Serbia guide, they will take on a much bigger role.

    (*) - Stats: halbs are 2/1/6/5/4, blades are 2/2/3/3/6. So slightly better melee, but much worse defense and armor. Both are AP and anti-cavalry, so no differences there. Apparently that +1 melee is enough to overcome the rest of it? Very surprised, obviously I don't really understand how these values are used. Incidentally Swiss Halberdiers in XL are 2/3/3/2/8? Aren't they supposed to be much better (not just a little better, and worse in some areas) than regular halberdiers? Billmen are 2/2/4/3/6 just for completeness :)

  10. #10
    Son of Gloin, Cleaver of Orcs Member Gimli's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    Swiss Halbardiers aren't armoured... They do have a few advantages though:

    they are faster!

    they have MUCH better morale!

    they have much better attack!



    curious: what are the stats for Kazanchi? (the Volga Bulgar unit that looks like swiss halbardiers)
    Last edited by Gimli; 08-02-2007 at 14:53.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    Kazanchis = 2/3/2/3/8, so slightly better than the Voynuks.

    Interesting, I found something called Angevin Infantry in the file, probably english... requires chapter house + county militia, and are 5/4/4/4/4. Maybe the ultimate halberdier? :) High build requirements though.

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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    Nah, Angevin infantry are basically a heavy sword unit. They don't get a bonus against armor or against cavalry like halbs and the other previously mentioned units. They're pretty good, but given their building requirements, its generally not that useful to train them. Especially considering that by the time you get them, you could instead have v1 chivalric men at arms, v2 billmen, and potentially v1 chivalric foot knights if you happen to own Ile de France. All of the others are better, imo, then Angevins. Now if the requirements were a tad less, like a town militia intead, then they'd be a lot more usable.
    It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then, the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.

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    Son of Gloin, Cleaver of Orcs Member Gimli's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    Quote Originally Posted by lord illingsworth
    Kazanchis = 2/3/2/3/8, so slightly better than the Voynuks.

    Interesting, I found something called Angevin Infantry in the file, probably english... requires chapter house + county militia, and are 5/4/4/4/4. Maybe the ultimate halberdier? :) High build requirements though.
    Thanks for the stats on Kazanchis!

    Not quite, the Angevian Infantry are a unit of Swordsmen that is NICE! It is kinda sad that they have such high building requirements... The only place I have ever really built them is in Constantinople... They are an English unique unit. Not too shabby when fighting with the Orthodox and Muslim troops. Sadly, they do seem slightly outdated because you already have access to other troops... However:

    60 Men

    Very Good Attack
    Heavily Armoured
    Good Defence
    Strong Charge
    Good Morale

    250 Building Cost & 60 Upkeep
    Last edited by Gimli; 08-02-2007 at 14:54.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    OK......

    Serbia - Early

    Playing Serbia in Early is quite a bit different from playing Serbia in High. If you want a challenge - this would do it. For starters, you don't have any available rich provinces available for bribery or conquest. Second, instead of a diminishing Byzantines, you get them at the height of their power. And third, some of your better units (Voynuk Blades, Shielded Bowmen) that might even the score don't even come available until High. Blitzing isn't an option; you start with a weak army that could not even think about surviving a counterattack from either Hungary or Byzantium, your only two neighbors. So, you will have to turtle and snipe if you want to survive.

    GETTING STARTED

    This isn't so much a 'getting started' as 'why not to play serbia in early' :) Seriously, I love playing Serbia in high, but have avoided them in early for this very reason. Perhaps you can make more of it.

    One advantage you do have is that your Carska Garda, the elite royal bodyguard of the Serbs, in addition to being a decent cavalry unit in its own right, also has projectiles - it's a super Horse Archer. I don't remember it being that way when I started in High, or the Vlastelas doing that. And you get a LOT of heirs early on... which is interesting for your fledgling economy, so you'll have to find a use for them. I think I got a full 6 within the first 20-30 years, and they are good heirs too, most of them 4-5 command and usually at least 3 valour. You have swordsmen too right away, which you can use since most everyone else will be spear-heavy at this point.

    The temptation is to build up an army quick and go a-viking. Avoid the temptation to get involved with the Byzantines; your units just aren't as good as theirs, even the Carska Garda, while they can deal with Trebizond Archers well enough, don't want to get mixed up with Kataphractoi or Byzantine Infantry. You might have better luck to the north, which is too bad since the Hungarians are one of the more trustworthy factions in my experience and usually make good allies. But Hungary is richer and, even when they are involved with the Cumans, still a formidable adversary. You can build boats soon, but since Serbia has no trade goods, it's not going to be that profitable.

    So this is a good faction to play for the player who prefers to turtle. Eventually the Byzantines will get embroiled in asia minor, and you should see some crusades eventually as well, which may help you. Hungary gets mixed up with the HRE and the Cumans. Both of those you may be able to turn to your advantage. Alternately, with a navy, you can go conquer islands instead, or take a back road into Tripoli or Palestine. There are no easy paths.

  15. #15
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    I've been playing a successful early Serbian game, so I think I can add a few things to what lord illingsworth said.

    As Serbia in early, you start with a measly two spearmen, plus your King, but will get new heirs quickly.

    Serbia is a rich province, and starts with mines. A few upgrades and higher taxes should push you up to about 1000 quickly. Unfortunately, it has no trade goods.

    I second lord illingsworth's suggestion to turtle. Both of Serbia's neighbors, Hungary and the Eastern Romans, are much more powerful. In my game I attempted to ally with both(Hungary refused), and waited for a nearby faction to weaken, while building ships to allow me a chance to strike at nearby islands.

    Naples has rebelled in 2 out of 3 of my Serbian games, and both times the rebels won. Taking it gives you a good trading province, and stepping stone to nearby islands. Just watch out for the pope and Sicily. I ended up suffering a massive attack from Sicily, only to be weakened enough for the pope to attack me.

    Grab any nearby islands you can, then wait for one of your neighbors to weaken. In my game, the Byzantines lost their European holdings to Egypt, and I was able to take Bulgaria, Constantinople, and Greece, the latter two of which are great for income.

    Once you've gotten a few provinces from one of your neighbors(Hungary and Sicily are good candidates also, if they have some troubles) playing Serbia becomes much like any other faction. You should be making quite a bit of money, and need only wait for further opportunities to expand.

    Units: Serbia starts being able to produce slav spearmen and Voynuk Swordsmen, among other units. For most of the early period you can get by with them alone. Slav spearmen are great for padding your armies and soaking up casualties and missile fire, while the Swordsmen that are pretty good in high are excellent in the first turns of the early period, easily outmatching the infantry most of your neighbors will produce right away.

    The serbs have a lot of faction heirs early on, so your family members' bodyguards can serve as heavy cav/archers, taking out enemy archers and shooting infantry in the back while your own infantry tie them up. Be wary of other bodyguard cav, though. Most other factions bodyguards are tougher in melee. If you much match yours to theirs toe to toe, try to outnumber them, and thin them out with your guard's bows first.
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  16. #16
    Lover of Toight Vahjoinas Member Bootsiuv's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    I loved Serbia on High....there unit line-up is the shiznit.

    If you want a challenge in XL, then Serbia early and Serbia late is for you. I never fared well in either.
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    Member Member Geezer57's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    I have to concur with Roark, Gimli, & others regarding the value of Voynuk Bladesmen - I've always found them to be (when properly employed) quite effective. My Serbian armies in XL almost always contain at least a couple of them, often more. Deadly against cavalry, still useful facing infantry (especially armored opponents). A very flexible unit overall.
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  18. #18
    Wandering Fool Senior Member bamff's Avatar
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    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    Quote Originally Posted by Zim
    I've been playing a successful early Serbian game, so I think I can add a few things to what lord illingsworth said.

    As Serbia in early, you start with a measly two spearmen, plus your King, but will get new heirs quickly.

    Serbia is a rich province, and starts with mines. A few upgrades and higher taxes should push you up to about 1000 quickly. Unfortunately, it has no trade goods.

    I second lord illingsworth's suggestion to turtle. Both of Serbia's neighbors, Hungary and the Eastern Romans, are much more powerful. In my game I attempted to ally with both(Hungary refused), and waited for a nearby faction to weaken, while building ships to allow me a chance to strike at nearby islands.

    Naples has rebelled in 2 out of 3 of my Serbian games, and both times the rebels won. Taking it gives you a good trading province, and stepping stone to nearby islands. Just watch out for the pope and Sicily. I ended up suffering a massive attack from Sicily, only to be weakened enough for the pope to attack me.

    Grab any nearby islands you can, then wait for one of your neighbors to weaken. In my game, the Byzantines lost their European holdings to Egypt, and I was able to take Bulgaria, Constantinople, and Greece, the latter two of which are great for income.

    Once you've gotten a few provinces from one of your neighbors(Hungary and Sicily are good candidates also, if they have some troubles) playing Serbia becomes much like any other faction. You should be making quite a bit of money, and need only wait for further opportunities to expand.

    Units: Serbia starts being able to produce slav spearmen and Voynuk Swordsmen, among other units. For most of the early period you can get by with them alone. Slav spearmen are great for padding your armies and soaking up casualties and missile fire, while the Swordsmen that are pretty good in high are excellent in the first turns of the early period, easily outmatching the infantry most of your neighbors will produce right away.

    The serbs have a lot of faction heirs early on, so your family members' bodyguards can serve as heavy cav/archers, taking out enemy archers and shooting infantry in the back while your own infantry tie them up. Be wary of other bodyguard cav, though. Most other factions bodyguards are tougher in melee. If you much match yours to theirs toe to toe, try to outnumber them, and thin them out with your guard's bows first.
    My experience was much the same. I grabbed Croatia as quickly as I could, and sought alliances with my larger neighbours. When the opportunity presents you probably need to be ready to pounce on either Venice or Naples (I would advise against taking on Hungary and the Byz early on - both are just too powerful). If you do get Venice, you will have troops nicely positioned to take advantage of the collapsing HRE to the north.

    Early unit roster for the Serbs is interesting. You get access to a great variety of mounted archers, from the lowly HA, through MXB's, to Carska Garda, and (with a bit of teching up) Early Vlastela Cavalry and Serbian Cavalry. A combination of these guys can be highly useful, with Vlastela's and Carska Garda's also handy cavalry once they have fired their arrows.

    Your cavalry options are not great however, which is why it is also worth looking for an opportunity to grab Wallachia, because once you do so you will be able to produce Wallachian Mercenary Cavalry. These guys are handy light cavalry, good for chasing down routers, archers, and HA's.

    Also in early you get Voynuk swordsmen. These guys are pretty handy in early. They will lose their shine in High.

    In summary, the thing to be aware of in Early is a shortage of dedicated medium to heavy cavalry when you first take the field.

    When you do get to High, the Carska Garda units become something very close to a Royal Knight, and Early Vlastela's are no longer available. The replacement unit though, is one of the better cavalry units in the game - Vlastela Heavy Cavalry . Both High CG's and High VHC's dismount to Chivalric Foot Knights. Also in High you get Shielded Bowmen, Crossbows, Arbs, etc, and (as mentioned above) Voynuk Bladesmen. All in all a very useful unit roster. The one hole (if there is one) is spears. You cannot produce anything more than armoured spearmen, and by High, these guys struggle a bit against the newer cavalry types.

  19. #19

    Default Re: XL Guide - Serbia

    I have tried the Serbs in Early now, and I must say, it's quite refreshing. You start out with close to no military forces, no trade goods, only one neighboring rebel province and an okay king.
    I followed your advices to turtle and wait for opportunities to arise. Having had several revolts while besieging Croatia, thus my king becoming an expert defender and six-star general, I chose to lay low and wait, allying with the Byzantines, who are more or less sweeping the map clean off all other factions.

    Although my Tzar was a conquering hero, only petty worms left his wife's womb. Trying to crush these insults my mighty kingdom, I let them seek out impossible battles with fatal outcomes. Thus, it came to a civil war, in which my only decent heir, Prince Uros, took command and taught his brothers a lesson in loyalty. Serbian Empire back on track.

    While the Byzantine Empire took care of the Cumans, I had time to train troops and wait for the HRE to weaken the Italians. After Venice had taken several blows, I decided it was ripe for harvest, and rode in with HAs, hordes of Slav Warriors and Voynuks. They retreated and 3 years later my Tzar also paraded in the streets of Milan.
    It is now 1126 and although the Byzantines are worrying me, overrunning Eastern Europe and having six- and seven-star heirs only, I feel that the Serbs can still play a significant role in the race for Europe.
    We shall see about that...I honestly do not know whether the Vlastela Cavalry is worth it, they cost a lot and have a medium to high upkeep, what's your opinion on that?

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