Dark Ages: Total War

[Riadach]

Any chance of an Irish Faction, considering the Uí Néill held all of Ulster, most of Connact and Mide at this stage, while holding Leinster as a vassal.

[Antagonist]

Indeed, having the British Isles as exclusively Saxons v. Britons doesn't seem to make much sense by the time of Charlemagne or the Norse...

Antagonist

[Kavhan Isbul]

I have no idea how many slots will be left for each period, but personally I would like to see a faction such as Great Moravia (Dark Ages Bohemia) in that with a position in Central Europe played an important role in the 9th century. As far as the British Isles go, I think Rythmic is creating a really nice conversion of the Viking Invasion campaign. I would not mind Ireland in, especially with its unique units, as long as it is not at the expense of another faction. It is all up to YourLordandConqueror at the end.

[Gimli]

Looks like things are moving right along here! It looks like its gonna be a good one!

[ULC]

Actually I was considering the Irish, Picts, and Scots. The problem is actually putting these factions together without making them stagnant. For instance, the Irish for some reason during testing never wanted to leave thier island, even with many ships! The Picts and Scots had a long war that would be very hard to construct with the limited space in Scotland (At the most, I think I can fit in 4 provinces, but thats pushing it). The Irish, most definitely, as their island is big enough, and with a land bridge to "egg them on", they could be a very good faction. If any one has solutions to the Scots/Picts, then tell me. As to the Irish, it could be easily done, I just need a mapper to add some strength to the "Emerald Isles". But I digress, my first and foremost concern is getting working rosters. As such, we need to settle on factions first.

How "Central" is the Great Moravia Kavhan Isbul? I need something to curb Bulgaria and Khazar (besides themselves). A Baltic of Finnic faction would be nice, but I lack the knowledge of which one would be any good.

I also need to know about my unit rosters. I need to know what tactics and weapons Steppe, Slavic, Roman and Celtic factions relied on. I've got Germanic down (Infantry based, with emphasis on heavy units) and I think I have Islamic (Light units, balanced all around). But after that I need names. I am aiming for names that reflect the cultures they come from. For instance, the Bavarian Heavy Swordsmen needs an equivialnt name (or histroical one) IN GERMAN. Same goes with all the other factions.

As to the timeline, this is what I have so far...
Game Start:632
High Start:812
Late Start:??? (Crownig of the First HRE Emperor)
End Date:1078

[Kavhan Isbul]

Great Moravia can only appear in High, when the Avars are gone and the Bulgars firmly in the Balkans and Carpathians. I think Moravia actually appears in the gap left by the disappearance of the Khaganate when it was destroyed by Charlemagne and finished by the Bulgars. In the mod, it can fill the space between Bulgaria and the Franks. At its height, its territory included not only Bohemia, but also parts of Poland, Transylvania and even what is today Northern Serbia. Moravia managed to withstoand several Bulgarian attacks and acted as an ally of the Eastern Roman Empire, and it can deffinitely help contain the Bulgars in High, when they should be most powerful. In Early, I think the Eastern Romans will be enough of a threat to everyone. I cannot come up with an idea of a balancing faction in the Baltic or the Steppes, but the truth is, until the Eastern Vikings founded Kiev Rus, there was none.
I like the idea of giving the units indigenous names. The problem with Bulgar units is that Bulgar as a language did not survive, and modern Bulgarian is a Slavic language. Still, here is what I propose based on what I know. Cavalry only, most of which should disband into a unit similar to the well-known Bulgarian Brigands, but let's call them Bulgar Warriors or simply Bulgars. The cavalry is as follows:
Steppe Cavalry
Horse Archers - nothing special about these two, except that they should be cheap to train and cheap to maintain to ensure great numbers of them
Chigots (standing for brave men, for lack of better term), which I imagine as a unit similar to the Cherniye Klobuki from XL - medium cavalry with high charge and morale, but fair melee and defense. In reality most steppe warriors had bows, even the heaviest armored ones, but giving bows to this unit might make it a little too powerful, so maybe they should be left just with their lances.
Bagaturs (Bagatur meant champion) - this should be the elite heavy cavalry with armor, high charge and high melee, the retinues of kans and princes. Maces and axes were quite popular based on finds, so they should also have some armor piercing bonus and this will actually give the Bulgars an effective unit against the Kataphraktoi, especially if they are given "bonus when attacking cavalry". This should be modelled after the Avar Nobles or Cuman Heavy Cavalry from the XL mod.
The Avars and Khazars should get similar rosters, but instead of the Bagaturi the Avar unit should be called Avar Nobles, of course, and the Khazar one Tarkhans. These were the elite of the Khazar armies and often small numbers of such extremely heavy armed and armored units, with their superb military training, managed to win against incredible odds, at least according to some chronicles about Khazar - Arab wars in the Caucasus. This should probably be the strongest heavy cavalry unit in the entire early and high period.
Finally, to further strengthen the cavalry rosters of the steppe factions, the mod should probably have Steppe Heavy Cavalry with bows and AP bonus available to all of them, but with high requirements.
As for infantry, this role was reserved for the Slavs. If the Slavs are given a cavalry unit, it should have the strength of Horsemen, at best. Their infantry was what they were famous for, according to the Byznatine military essays describing the various enemies of the Basileus. It would be cool if the Slavs are given some sort of light axe armed infantry, with high attack but weak defense, which can hide even in the open similarly to untis such as Hashishin and Welsh Bandits. The Byzantine authors go to great lengths in explaining the various tricks Slavs employed to create ambushes and hide in swamps and woods, so this will be justified. I will keep the Javelinmen to give the Slavs or whoever controls their lands a decent unit for defending bridges and dealing with heavy armor. For the same reason I will keep the Slav Warriors, perhaps called "Voini", with a slight anti-cavalry bonus, to provide a weak spear unit to the Slavs and the steppe factions. If there is a Slav faction in Early or High, maybe they should have some sort of a Royal Heavy Infantry unit. Based on archaeological finds, the Slavs' equipment originated in the blacksmith shops of the Rhineland, which supplied all of Western and Northern Europe. Therefore, they should be similar to Germanic and Scandinavian elite heavy infantry, just not quite as good.
This was a long post, I hope it helps with the initial research.

[Riadach]

Well there was little Celtic connection at this stage but I can't account for them individually. There are three different periods really in Irish warfare, so the three different dates will be important.


Throughout the period, the Irish fought in a compact style, usually consisting of three lines of battle. Whether there was independent movement of units, it's unsure, but they were certainly worried about flanks etc. Individual heroes could also be employed in battle, usually seeking out other individuals.Whataver, speed and lightness of foot, as well as exploitation of geographical features was essential to Irish warfare.

612

Cavalry- At this stage independent cavalry was quite uncommon, chariots would have been the order of the day. These would have involved both missile fire from cavalry, or fighting, and would each have both a driver and a fighter, and would have been considered.

Hand-to-Hand- Most of the fighting would have involved spears at this stage. This consisted of two types, the craisech, a heavy spear used mostly for smashing and breaking bones, and the sleágh, much lighter used for piercing.

Swords were in use, but they were uncommon among the lower ranks. They were similar to the roman gladius at this stage and were used for stabbing and piercing, and not swiping or lopping.

Missile warfare, usually conducted at the beginning of battle, was conducted by stone-throwers, and spear and javelin throwers. Even in the 12th century the Irish were renowned for their accuracy and distance as regards spearthrowing, and it is likely this was true in the earlier period as well. They also had spear thongs so they could retrieve their spears on throwing them.

The other form of missile fire at this stage was the stone-thrower. Once again accuracy here was important, but we also have reference to leads balls being used as shot, something that would make them quite overwhelming. Bows were not in use in warfare at this period.

Armour- Would have been sparse at this juncture. Mostly waxed shirts and leather clothes. Perhaps the king may have had a lúirech, but it certainly wouldn't have been widespread. Shields would have included the round shield and the buckler depending on the wealth of the unit.

812

Cavalry- At this stage, though the chariot may have been in use by certain members of the upper classes, the horse as an individual cavalry unit came to a head with the viking invasions. These were the native horse, so they would have been light, and their riders would ride with a cushion, but could mount by leaping on the horse which was essential since stirrups were not in use. They use spears and swords at this stage, as well as being mounted javelinmen. There are references to a marcshlua ríoga, royal cavalry, who may be different from a regular cavalry who may not have been well armoured, and used mainly for raiding etc.

Hand to Hand. Much the same as before in regards to spearmen, the spears however being properly rivetted, and perhaps progression in steel production. The axe during this period, would have come to head, perhaps in imitation of the Norse axe. This would involve both the handaxe, and the sáfach or pole-arm, which indeed could be a response to the advance in cavalry.

Swords also improved in imitation of the Norse, and became much larger, but also no longer limited to stabbing or piercing but lopping and swiping as well.

Missiles were improved slightly. Spears were rivetted now, but they were also counterweighted for increased accuracy. Stone-throwers were still in use. Bows, also in imitation of the Norse, were also on the rise, though anomylous and far from widespread.

The Irish also began using the tight shield wall, or sceallbholg at this stage, in imitation of the Norse, so a strong charge became part of Irish warfare. Caltrops were also used, as well as field fortifications.

Armour- Body armour increased among noble troops, but still not respected as much as it should. Helmets occur among nobles, and both curved (cromsgiath) and iron-embossed shields (cabhradh) become very common the former among the nobility. The lúirech or scaball, (may involve chainmail but definitely armour, the latter covering the shoulders and coming from the latin scapula, the former from lorica. But once again noble soldiers, or the more professional fighters, would have used such. There is also the muince, perhaps a mail-hood, which was in common use and initially protected only the neck but later covered the complete head.

????? period

Cavalry. Chariots have now disappeared, and the cavalry become more and more an excepted part of the battlefield. Come in three varieties, the king's household, who would have been armoured, carry swords, overarm lances, wear helmets, and may have even carried bows(as they did with great accuracy and distance in later centuries) and medium horses (now being imported from france and scotland), used in battle and for raiding, and could be and frequently did, dismount. Then no doubt, would be their vassals bodyguards, who were perhaps not as armoured or as heavy as that of the provincial kings, but could also dismount and had similar weapons. Then on a much lower level would have been light soldiers, unarmoured for scouting and raiding duties (similar to later horseboys).

Fighting- Much the same, better quality weapons no doubt, and swords and axes were becoming increasingly cheaper and more common.

Missiles= Improved darting and spear qualities. Warbows now being considered an important weapon, may have been reflected in unit makeup. In later centuries, it was the ceithearn, who carried bows, (and later on muskets) so perhaps this was the case at this stage too.

Armour- became much cheaper and more widespread, never quite reaching the lower ranks though. Crested helmets also become popular among leaders.

With the increase in wealth, mercenary soldiers, and not levy troops, as well as something similar to a standing army, become more common. These allow for much greater quality in equipment and weaponry among many soldiers.