Dark Ages: Total War

[Kavhan Isbul]

I will need to do some more research on Moravia, but I really do not think there was anything even resembling a state in those lands in the early 7th century. Perhaps a solution to the problem of Avars, Bulgars and Khazars overrunning the East quickly would be to strengthen the rebels - give them many, and strong, units and leaders with 4-5 stars and some anti-bribe vices. This way it will at least slow down the steppe factions. But I will see if I can find some sort of faction to improve the balance in the Eastern part of the map.
I also completely understand the problem that steppe factions will have without the proper infantry, but perhaps making some units recruitable to anyone in Eastern Europe, such as Slav axe armed infantry may alleviate the problem. In reality, the steppe armies relied on their horse archers when faced with well formed infantry and if the range of those horse archers is increased, along with some AP ability, to reflect the really astounding range and power of the complex bows, then battles will be really fun and concentrated far more on out-meneuvering your oponent, rather than simply matching his units with your units, so that yours grind through his - for example swords vs spears, spears vs cavalry, cavalry vs swords. Furthermore, spearmen should be moderately powerful, not to say weak, and with low morale, during the early period, as I cannot recall a battle in which a spear and shield wall decimated a cavalry army. You can argue it happened at Tours, but this would fall into the high period. It is remarkable that the Eastern Romans' answer to the Turks, Avars, Bulgars and Arabs cavalry heavy armies were the Kataphraktoi, rather than some form of elite spearmen. Armor was scarce in this period, only available only to nobles, pikes non-existant, and heavily armored horsemen charging with lances into men with only a shield and a spear usually had a devastating effect, even if the infantry managed to hold its position and take the charge (which I sure as hell would nerver want to do). Most of the time infantry routed at the mere sight of the iron clad riders descending upon it, and to reflect this in the game, I wonder if it is possible for certain heavy cavalry units, such as the Kataphraktoi and the elite Steppe BG cavalry to get a "cause fear bonus" similar to that of siege engines in the original game.

[ULC]

Since I will be implementing homelands for every unit (I hope this doesn't crash the game...) I have been toying around with some ideas on units and regions. Since each faction has a base of 8 units, with some replaced (3-4) with faction specific units, we end up with a range of about 160-200. I was thinking on creating units in certian regions that are available to only other factions. Say for instance that you are the Bavarians and you take over parts of Poland. You no longer have acess to your Germanic units (at least not your good ones) which are then replaced by "special" slav units. You get a decent selection from this area, but it's nothing compared to your homelands. You then continue your conquests into the steppes. Again, your unit selection changes, but it's even worse this time. As you continue to get further and futher away from your ethnic homelands, your choices become narrower and narrower. What do you think?

Is there such thing as an online translator? Such that I could input "swordsmen", select german, and !POOF!, I have a translation?

[Kavhan Isbul]

I think it sounds great, but it also sounds like a lot of work. Personally, I have always been a strong supporter of the homelands concept, because in my opinion it improves the game significantly. And I have also always been in favor of region-specific units. I love your idea, and I really want to see it implemented, if you do not go crazy creating all these units.
I tried hard to find something about factions in Eastern Europe, but in the early period there is nothing other than the Steppe Peoples. However, interestingly enough, there is something called Samo's Empire in the first half of the 7th century, which in territory was similar to the later Great Moravia. Samo was a Frank, who happened to rise to power over the Slavs in Central Europe after a successfull rebellion against the Avars. His Empire was at best a confederation of tribes with him on top, and it was gone quickly after his death, the Avars recovering all of their former lands and subjugating the Slavs again. I am not sure if including this short-lived "Empire" would help the overall balance, other than it would certainly create further problems for the Avars and maybe the Franks. Playtests should be made to see how its inclusion will affect the game, but if it causes the Eastern Romans to crush the Avars and steamroll from the Danube to the Baltic, it might be wiser to leave the Avars bigger and stronger.

[ULC]

Actually, The Avars AND the East Romans need a little bit of powering up. I have the Islamic Arabs start with 4-6 full stacks, and the Bulgars usaually head west (which is good ). The East Romans are generally to far distracted with defending themselves to bother looking north to the Avars. The Avars themselves fight the Bulgars almost immediatly (the war starting in Volyhnia) and then become steadfast allies of the East Romans (the Avars usually win because Khazar usually stabs The Bulgars in the back). Once each threat is over though, they proceed to mercisely beat each other into a pulp, in which case either the Alemane, Bavarians, Lombards or Franks becomes the superpower.

I am leery of strong rebels, becuase the AI has a habit of treating them as if they were a real threat, and therefore builds enormous armies on borders with rebels, when it should be taking them. Decently strong yes, but not enough to cause the actual factions to slip into stagnation.

As to the cause fear bonus, I thnk we can implement it the same way that fear is implemented for horses fighting camels.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Great, sounds like this mod is well on track and promsies to be a treat.

[Sigma]

Cool, :) I can't wait to play the mod it sounds like its going awsome now :D

[ULC]

I still need information more information on the factions listed above...

I need to know what their level of military was at the starting dates (for starting buildings and units), so as to give the player an accurate potrayal of it would have been to be that faction. I also need to know what each factions specialization was: Did they prefer cavalry, infantry, ambush, good formation, archery or ranged combat? What was the overall quality of their army? What was the armies general make-up? How good was their generalship? What was the status of most of their army (morale reasons)? What were they famous for?

Also, for intercultural relations and homelands, what would be acceptable homelands for most factions? Where were the cultural boundaries? How "accepting, or how "close" were certian factions? Where they multicultural?

Any and all suggestions for Factions will be considered, as I have plenty of room. The same goes with Faction rosters. Also, I need Flags and faction colors for those that we are using. As for units, the only "REAL" stepping stone will be the unit graphics, as to which ones to use and if we need to modify and/or create new ones. Any suggestions (or historically accurate) faction unit rosters will be accepted. I will not, under any circumstances, accept "fantasy units" . I am aiming for accuracy as best I can.

Also, I still need a rough map I can work with from someone, using the lands OmarPacha has suggested.

On another note, I have come across a problem and possibly the solution to that problem. Many of the factions during the High era switch religions midstride, thus resulting in a rather "unhistorical" gameplay. I was thinking that instead of shifting the era so that this would be less of a problem, I could instead "tweak" their religion. As such, to play the Moravians in High, for instance, your rulers/generals are Catholic, where as the majority of your population is still "Pagan". Also, I also reduced the conversion strength of most buildings and units, so the process takes longer. So what happens is that you have a duel challenge; Expand and conqueror, while at the same time keep those happy within your borders, as religious unrest is going to a big problem in Dark Age Total War. This is laden throughout the game, so you will always have these problems. So, what do you think?

[Calypze]

I really like this idea!

Some things I would like to add:

The Danes weren't a state until , they were just a tribe (either a tribe or a coalition of tribes, I don't know), and I don't think they covered exactly what is modern day Denmark. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danes#Origins

It would perhaps also be a good idea to enlarge the map, so that all of the Sassanid Empire is on the map, and make the whole Arabian penninsula on it. Another good idea would be to split up Arabia into several provinces. I think that after the Abbasids, no Islamic dynasty was ever able to rule all of Arabia.

[cegorach]

I think it sounds great, but it also sounds like a lot of work. Personally, I have always been a strong supporter of the homelands concept, because in my opinion it improves the game significantly. And I have also always been in favor of region-specific units. I love your idea, and I really want to see it implemented, if you do not go crazy creating all these units.
I tried hard to find something about factions in Eastern Europe, but in the early period there is nothing other than the Steppe Peoples. However, interestingly enough, there is something called Samo's Empire in the first half of the 7th century, which in territory was similar to the later Great Moravia. Samo was a Frank, who happened to rise to power over the Slavs in Central Europe after a successfull rebellion against the Avars. His Empire was at best a confederation of tribes with him on top, and it was gone quickly after his death, the Avars recovering all of their former lands and subjugating the Slavs again. I am not sure if including this short-lived "Empire" would help the overall balance, other than it would certainly create further problems for the Avars and maybe the Franks. Playtests should be made to see how its inclusion will affect the game, but if it causes the Eastern Romans to crush the Avars and steamroll from the Danube to the Baltic, it might be wiser to leave the Avars bigger and stronger.

For what I remember form the secondary school he was a Frankish merchant who somehow led or got involved in a fight against Avars.

Anyway for that period of time our part of Europe was pretty chaotic and almost impossible to find something for sure, though recently for example the birth of Poland was again revised to even earlier times - late 8th or early 9th century, but that is too little for your mod.

There was however - possibly - a Vistulan tribe state around Kraków which was built for sure no later than in the early 9th century which baceme a part of Great Moravia or at least a vassal of this 'empire' - it included Lesser Poland.

A suggestion. Mazovia was nothing more than a depopulated banch of forests at that time and te real Poland would consist from Lesser and Greater Poland and Silesia which is very important to remember as a fightng ground for the next 3 centuries between Poles, HRE and Bohemia.

[ULC]

Okay, I have been doing some revising, and here is what I have so far...

Timeline
Early Start Date: 632 (Death of Mohammed)
High Start Date: 743 (Death of Charles Martel)
Late Start Date: 912 (Conversion of the Khazars)
End Date: 1078

Map
Expanded map, showing more of the middle east all the way to the Caspian Sea.
Total reworking of provincinal borders, with many renamed.

Factions
Early
Irish
Britons
Picts
Scots
Saxons
Norse
Neustrasians
Austrasians
Burgundians
Bavarians
Alemane
Lombards
Visigoths
Sueves
Basques
Beneventians
Carinthians
Avars
Bulgars
Khazars
East Romans
Sassanids
Arabs

High
Irish
Picts
Scots
Welsh
Wessex
Norse
Saxons
Franks
Asturias
Aquitiane
Lombards
Beneventians
Moravians
Polanes
Avars
Bulgars
Magyars
Khazars
Volga-Bulgars
East Romans
Cordovians
Tahertians
Abbasids
Abkhazians

Late
Irish
Scots
Wessex
Norwegians
Gotalanders
Danish
Franks
Holy Roman Empire
Astrurias (Leon)
Burgundy
Italians
Papacy
Bohemians
Polish
Lithuanians
Magyars
Bulgarians
Cumans
Kievians
Rostovians
Volga-Bulgars
Khazars
East Romans
Abkhazians
Seljuks
Armenians
Abbasids
Tulinids
Tahertians
Aghlabids
Idrissids
Cordovians

Faction Unit Rosters
Factions have "Primary Cultural Rosters" and "Secondary Faction Specific Units". Recruitment ability for the former is limited by "Primary Homelands". Each faction has "Secondary Homelands" which they can recruit the local population, and the strength of siad armies raised are based on the "closeness" of such cultures. I have the Cultural Rosters sorted out, but I still need more information on certian factions for faction specific units (minus the Bulgars, Khazars, Avars, East Romans, Bavarians, Alemane, Franks, Lombards and Irish) As a reminder, a units name will be in its native tongue, so if you have unit suggestions, please translate them if you can.

Cultural Roster for Celtic Factions
Light Spear
Light Spear: Although this appears to be a duplicate unit, it carries a Javelin and has good strength to it, very similiar to Muwahid.
Light Archer
Light Cavalry
Light Sword
Heavy Sword
Heavy Spear
Royal Cavalry (Javelin): This is debatable, I'm actually thinking about making them infantry

Cultural Roster for Germanic Factions
Light Spear
Light Archer
Light Axe/Polearm
Light Cavalry
Heavy Axe/Polearm
Heavy Sword
Heavy Spear
Royal Cavalry

Cultural Roster for Slavic Factions
Light Spear
Light Spear
Light Archer
Light Axe/Polearm
Heavy Axe/Polarm
Heavy Sword/Archer
Heavy Spear
Royal Infantry

Cultural Roster for Steppe Factions
Light Spear
Light Archer
Light Axe/Polearm
Light Cavalry
Light Cavalry Archer
Heavy Cavalry
Heavy Cavalry Archer
Royal Cavalry

Cultural Roster for Roman Factions
Light Spear
Light Archer
Light Cavalry
Light Cavalry Archer
Heavy Axe/Polearm
Heavy Sword
Heavy Cavalry Archer
Royal Cavalry

Cultural Roster for Islamic Factions
Light Spear
Light Sword
Light Archer
Light Cavalry
Light Cavalry Archer
Heavy Archer
Heavy Cavalry Archer
Royal Cavalry

Tech Trees
I will be using an extended Viking Buildings production for most factions, minus the Islamic and Roman Factions. It's not finished, but it should be soon.

As of right now, Only the Bavarians, Khazars, Bulgars, and Avars are complete, with the Lombards, Irish, Visigoths, and Franks following close behind. The East Romans
(and Islamic Factions in general) are partially complete, they just need to have their units named (and specialized for the Islamic factions).

I could use help in the following...

Heroes and Kings for the Heroes.txt
Suggestions on Colors and Faction Flags

Once this is all complete, I will then move on to unit graphics. I will also need someone skilled in maps, as I am thinking of specific maps for certian regions, such that when you seige Constantinople, you actualy seige the city of Constantinople, not just a castle.


Thanks Kavhan Isbul for your Help in the Steppe Factions, Raidiach on the Irish, OmarPacha for the map, and everyone else for support.

[ULC]

Could I have this stickied so I don't lose it? Thanks in advance.

[Torin XII]

Hi!
Here is some early swedish kings that might work for your "Gotalanders" faction in the late era. But I strongly recommend you to change the faction to "Svear" because it was they who were the most famous ethnic group in present Sweden at that time. I also think that the name of the provinces, "East Gotar", "West Gotar" and "Sviar" should be changed to "East Götaland", "West Götaland" and "Sviariki"/"Sviaveldi"/"Svearike".

"Kings of Svear"
Björn Eriksson ~900
Ring ~930
Emund Eriksson ~960
Olof ~970-975
Erik Segersäll ~970-993 (He and his brother Olof ruled together until Olof died)
Olof Skötkonung ~993-1022
Anund Jakob ~1022-1051
Emund Gamle ~1051-1060
Stenkil ~1060-1066
Halsten ~1066-1080

I only know 1 svean hero, Ingvar Vittfarne, that went on an expedition to Särkland (Turkey) in 1040-1041 that failed.

Well, not much but I hope it can be useful, because this seems to be a really nice mod.
//Torin

[OmarPacha]

Hi,
I'm afraid that the matter of the map here is getting a little confused
as I was going for a basic remake of the classical MTW Europe map with new region borders and their own, historical, names.
Then - I've read, some posts ago, of Caspian sea and the area surrounding

Map
Expanded map, showing more of the middle east all the way to the Caspian Sea.
Total reworking of provincinal borders, with many renamed.

and, on this new purpose, I begun to build the part of the map to be added and a square to include the british isles out of scale.
Therefore I know well I'm in charge to make the final .BMP and the compressed .TGAs,
but I never said to be able to do all the work to get the map. Actually we still need
someone to apply the LMM4 to schemes.

Even this way, it's a huge job so I can't post some image of new map before end of october.

Greetings

[ULC]

Yes, I do believe I metioned that. I have a map image already to go, the problem is getting on the computer. As stated above, the scanner is broke, and I am in the process of getting a new one. I never meant to saddle that much work on you Omarpacha, I was from the start intending to do the whole thing, but I just needed a little guidance. The map that I asked for was supposed to be only a non-working rough draft, so I could then create a final copy using LMM4. Soryy for the extreme confusion.