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Thread: EB2's armor

  1. #1

    Default EB2's armor

    Ello.

    It occured to me that in M2TW, armor upgrades are represented on the battlefield by better armor on the unit models. Ex. Peasant archers with three armor upgrades wear chainmail, whereas freshly recruited ones without a blacksmith in the province simply wear factionally-colored tunics.

    Has the EB team considered this feature, and how to utilize it? It comes to mind to have, perhaps, 'Classical Hoplites" upgrade from Linthorax to a leather cuirass, or something along those lines.

  2. #2
    fancy assault unit Member blank's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    I think it'll not be used in EB2
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  3. #3
    EB Traitor Member BozosLiveHere's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    As it is, the armor upgrade effects are hardcoded, even though there are parameters in edu that should enable us to adjust them on a per-unit basis. Unfortunately they don't work in the current version. If this changes for the next version/expansion, we will probably make use of them.

  4. #4

    Default Re: EB2's armor

    Ah, awesome then!

  5. #5
    Handler of candles Member Xehh II's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    How can you not use the cool feture of upgrading armour it would be perofect for EB.
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  6. #6
    An Imperfect Follower of Light Member Wolfman's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    I think it would expecially be a good way to represent the polybian and celtic reforms.
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    EB TRIBVNVS PLEBIS Member MarcusAureliusAntoninus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    The problem is that in the EB system one type of armor would have 6 defense and the upgraded type of armor should provide 11 defense. But the M2TW blacksmiths will provide only 1 defense bonus for the upgrade.


  8. #8

    Default Re: EB2's armor

    However if we can get around that then we can start doing nice things with units such as Libyan Infantry, and Liby-Phoenician infantry. (Because they do have heavy counterparts.)
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  9. #9
    Member Member hoom's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    To do this in a way that makes sense, you'd need to be linking ability to upgrade at Armourer to Reforms wouldn't you?
    Dunno if thats easy or hard though.

    But yeah, that would be a really cool way to deal with upgraded units & backward provinces using old style warfare.

    Would it be possible to get as drastic as to have Hoplites upgraded in Athens turn into Iphicratids? (assuming proper control of unit stat affect from upgrade)
    maybe those guys should be doing something more useful...

  10. #10
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    Quote Originally Posted by hoom
    Would it be possible to get as drastic as to have Hoplites upgraded in Athens turn into Iphicratids? (assuming proper control of unit stat affect from upgrade)
    No, we cannot do this because this would require a change in animation. The only thing that can change, afaik, is the .cas and .dds files that the unit uses, but not the animation files. Unfortunately.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus
    The problem is that in the EB system one type of armor would have 6 defense and the upgraded type of armor should provide 11 defense. But the M2TW blacksmiths will provide only 1 defense bonus for the upgrade.
    Not exactly true, different armour upgrades provide different boni but they never go above 11 and given the fact that some of our units have armour in the high 20's that's obviously a problem.
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    EB TRIBVNVS PLEBIS Member MarcusAureliusAntoninus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    I heard that even though some armor bonuses are supposed to go over 1 and be modable, that they are bugged and right now (in the current M2TW) each level of upgrade only gives +1 defense. I was probably misled by random rumors on a M2TW forum, though.


  13. #13

    Default Re: EB2's armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenic
    Ello.

    It occured to me that in M2TW, armor upgrades are represented on the battlefield by better armor on the unit models. Ex. Peasant archers with three armor upgrades wear chainmail, whereas freshly recruited ones without a blacksmith in the province simply wear factionally-colored tunics.

    Has the EB team considered this feature, and how to utilize it? It comes to mind to have, perhaps, 'Classical Hoplites" upgrade from Linthorax to a leather cuirass, or something along those lines.
    Think of the impact its going to have on the game I mean, take the Celts for example, if you have a standard Celtic warrior, unarmored sword and shield, and then give him maybe leather armor or a basic bronse circular plate on his chest and then eventually give him chain mail armor, you bascially kill three birds with one stone, there will be so many spare unit slots.

  14. #14
    Member Member ElectricEel's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    I heard that even though some armor bonuses are supposed to go over 1 and be modable, that they are bugged and right now (in the current M2TW) each level of upgrade only gives +1 defense. I was probably misled by random rumors on a M2TW forum, though.
    According to research in this thread, while only +1 armour is displayed on the unit cards, the upgraded units do actually get more armour than that - but the exact amount is not clear, and tests indicate it differs from what a CA developer said it was supposed to be.

  15. #15
    EB TRIBVNVS PLEBIS Member MarcusAureliusAntoninus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricEel
    According to research in this thread, while only +1 armour is displayed on the unit cards, the upgraded units do actually get more armour than that - but the exact amount is not clear, and tests indicate it differs from what a CA developer said it was supposed to be.
    Cool. Thanks for the link.


  16. #16
    Member Member geala's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    Are you sure that the upgrade would be a good idea in the historical sense?

    I don't want to have light troops who went unarmoured for some reasons wearing armour only because they are recruited in a certain town. Armour may serve the individual but perhaps made the unit perform worse; as long as this could not be simulated I would be very critical about armour upgrades.

    And I foresee the nice discussions related to this. In the first post is a statement which I would dislike totally for example: why should leather be better than linen? Some people would say the opposite or that it depends on the circumstances. Is mail worse than plate? Mail with a soft backing worse than plate? Mail better than scale armour? A lot of questions. The questions occur of course also with a fixed armour (that is: now) but perhaps the solution here allows a few more diversity?

    Or the Iphicratic "peltasts", probably being hoplites. I highly doubt the fact they were in any sense better than the classical hoplites. Considering armour alone they should be worse perhaps. I can imagine a lot more questions...

    Maybe the EB team (who else) will solve the problems.
    Last edited by geala; 07-19-2007 at 12:25.
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  17. #17
    EB Unit Dictator/Administrator Member Urnamma's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    Leather is not better than linen. It is in fact worse.

    We would only use this feature to reduce the total number of units (in order to add more). Doing things like Making Light and heavy libyans merge into one unit, and what not, would be what EB would do with this feature. So don't fear peasants armored in mail anytime soon :-)
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  18. #18
    War Lord Member Kepper's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    I have found this in another forum, is about armor:
    4 armors (1 normal and 3 upgrades)

    as many variations as the modelers can put in xD

    I just found out that I can make the crest independent from the helmet the unit is wearing...so now MY hoplites wear 2 different crests or none ^^ which aren't always on the same helmets...you might have noticed in the earlier pics that the smaller crest has always been on the helmet with the vanilla RTW texture...

    and there can be variations in:
    -Helmets
    -Heads
    -Primary weapons
    -Primary upgraded weapons
    -Secondary weapons
    -Secondary upgraded weapons
    -Arms
    -Hands
    -Legs
    -Bodies
    -Accessories
    -Shields

  19. #19
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    Not only is the armor upgrade useful (no more Libyan infantry and heavy, etc.) the variance is useful,too. for units such as hoplites, most celtic soldiers, and early roman units. EB is awesome, even the graphics, but since everyone's a clone it's not as good.

    The M2TW cavalry overpower is a problem. How are we to get around that with charge of 37 ???
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  20. #20
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    According to research in this thread, while only +1 armour is displayed on the unit cards, the upgraded units do actually get more armour than that - but the exact amount is not clear, and tests indicate it differs from what a CA developer said it was supposed to be.
    Further tests showed thar armour upgrades give +2/2.5 irregardless of armour level.

  21. #21

    Default Re: EB2's armor

    M2:TW style armor upgrades would be totally awesome. Plain-clothed frameas can be upgraded to wear simple leather and buttressed shields and then later to chain mail with helmet. And then the legionnaires would start at the chain mail and later upgrade to wear the muscled cuirass (lorica segmentata?).

    But I fear that this would disturb the historical accuracy of the mod. I mean, it would be very unrealistic if a roman army marches to Swebia (Germania?) and see Germanic warbands clad in iron. Perhaps the armor upgrade buildings would be set at a high price, just like the mines and the ports? That way, the factions with low income (like Swebos) would not easily provide high-quality equipment to its soldiers, and vice versa for the richer factions such as the Selukids, Parthai and Romani.

    And speaking of which, I wonder if EB team can implement having cheaper smiths at cities that have mines.

  22. #22
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: EB2's armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim_Ghost
    And then the legionnaires would start at the chain mail and later upgrade to wear the muscled cuirass (lorica segmentata?).
    Lorica segmentata is the segmented armour that was in use during the Imperial era. And before someone asks (because the question seems to crop up every two weeks these days): no, it won't be included in EB, because it wasn't in common use until after EB's time-frame. I am not sure how muscled cuirasses were called, but these would have been frightfully expensive, so they weren't used by the rank-and-file.

    As for your suggestions: I think it is possible to restrict the upgrades to a certain faction (it was in R:TW, at least), so Roman troops will not be influenced by German blacksmiths. However, what bothers me more is that equiping troops with improved armour wouldn't cost you more than equiping them with normal armour. That is unrealistic.
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  23. #23
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    However, what bothers me more is that equiping troops with improved armour wouldn't cost you more than equiping them with normal armour. That is unrealistic.
    You can edit the cost of upgrades in the edu,

  24. #24
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: EB2's armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusted
    You can edit the cost of upgrades in the edu,
    Yes, but is that cost added to the cost of units when you train them, or just used when re-training them, or for custom battles?
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  25. #25
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: EB2's armor

    It's used for all 3 i believe.

  26. #26

    Default Re: EB2's armor

    Why are so many people interested in seeing the Lorica segmentata implemented in EB ?

    It does look nice for sure, and maybe I'm missing a point here, but it's just an other type of armor, right ?
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  27. #27
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: EB2's armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusted
    It's used for all 3 i believe.
    Thanks for the information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patriote
    Why are so many people interested in seeing the Lorica segmentata implemented in EB ?

    It does look nice for sure, and maybe I'm missing a point here, but it's just an other type of armor, right ?
    For many people it's the quintessential Roman armour, and a game about Romans wouldn't be complete without it. Sadly, some of them don't seem to realize that the EB team is familiar with popular culture as well, and must have had a reason for not including it.
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  28. #28

    Default Re: EB2's armor

    Well yeah, it is very "Gladiator" like, must be why they want it so badly
    Proving the others wrong does not prove you right.

    Being against war is an evidence in itself but peace is nothing but an absence of wars.

    If capitalism, and all its vices, is the best humanity can do with its energies when at peace, it might as well start fighting again...

    It is said that the people during the Middle Ages when uneducated, gross, naive, fearful of the unknow and uncaring for all but their little pleasures, with the exception of some elites. I can assure you it haven't change to this day.

  29. #29

    Default Re: EB2's armor

    Well EB is about you, the player, creating your own history right? I would like to see a "what if" scenario when the Romans are extremely rich, so rich that they can afford to over-equip their legions with the highest quality armor avaliable.

    It would take like 80K of gold and 40 turns (not counting the previous blacksmiths) to build an armor factory, but for the super-duper-rich Romani player, this wouldn't be an obstacle. This armor factory enables the upgrade of legion armor to the muscled cuirass.

    The team woudln't worry about seeing so many of these upgraded legionnaires, because as I said the armor factory would be so high up the tech tree, so expensive and takes so long to complete. Only deeply specialized cities (like Rome) will have the facilities. The AI won't be abusing the smiths despite teh money cheat because as I observe in EB1 they prefer to build other buildings instead.

    It is historically inaccurate to see legions with the cuirass, because as you said that it is too expensive, but it doesn't mean that it is historially improbable if the Romans are a lot richer - as in the case of me, the player.

  30. #30
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: EB2's armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Patriote
    Well yeah, it is very "Gladiator" like, must be why they want it so badly
    Assuredly. Although LS has been hyped long before that movie was even conceived. All Ridley Scott did was go along with popular culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim_Ghost
    Well EB is about you, the player, creating your own history right? I would like to see a "what if" scenario when the Romans are extremely rich, so rich that they can afford to over-equip their legions with the highest quality armor avaliable.
    Historically, the Romans were very rich, yet if anything they downgraded their armour. EB is indeed about rewriting history, but not every possibility can be included. If you do that, you have to allow the Celts to create cataphracts, or the Saba to recruit a legion. Could have happened, but rather unlikely, and so I doubt they are going to include it.
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