EB2's armor

[Ravenic]

Ello.

It occured to me that in M2TW, armor upgrades are represented on the battlefield by better armor on the unit models. Ex. Peasant archers with three armor upgrades wear chainmail, whereas freshly recruited ones without a blacksmith in the province simply wear factionally-colored tunics.

Has the EB team considered this feature, and how to utilize it? It comes to mind to have, perhaps, 'Classical Hoplites" upgrade from Linthorax to a leather cuirass, or something along those lines.

[blank]

I think it'll not be used in EB2

[BozosLiveHere]

As it is, the armor upgrade effects are hardcoded, even though there are parameters in edu that should enable us to adjust them on a per-unit basis. Unfortunately they don't work in the current version. If this changes for the next version/expansion, we will probably make use of them.

[Ravenic]

Ah, awesome then!

[Xehh II]

How can you not use the cool feture of upgrading armour it would be perofect for EB.

[Wolfman]

I think it would expecially be a good way to represent the polybian and celtic reforms.

[the_handsome_viking]

Ello.

It occured to me that in M2TW, armor upgrades are represented on the battlefield by better armor on the unit models. Ex. Peasant archers with three armor upgrades wear chainmail, whereas freshly recruited ones without a blacksmith in the province simply wear factionally-colored tunics.

Has the EB team considered this feature, and how to utilize it? It comes to mind to have, perhaps, 'Classical Hoplites" upgrade from Linthorax to a leather cuirass, or something along those lines.

Think of the impact its going to have on the game I mean, take the Celts for example, if you have a standard Celtic warrior, unarmored sword and shield, and then give him maybe leather armor or a basic bronse circular plate on his chest and then eventually give him chain mail armor, you bascially kill three birds with one stone, there will be so many spare unit slots.

[ElectricEel]

I heard that even though some armor bonuses are supposed to go over 1 and be modable, that they are bugged and right now (in the current M2TW) each level of upgrade only gives +1 defense. I was probably misled by random rumors on a M2TW forum, though.

According to research in this thread, while only +1 armour is displayed on the unit cards, the upgraded units do actually get more armour than that - but the exact amount is not clear, and tests indicate it differs from what a CA developer said it was supposed to be.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

According to research in this thread, while only +1 armour is displayed on the unit cards, the upgraded units do actually get more armour than that - but the exact amount is not clear, and tests indicate it differs from what a CA developer said it was supposed to be.

Cool. Thanks for the link.

[geala]

Are you sure that the upgrade would be a good idea in the historical sense?

I don't want to have light troops who went unarmoured for some reasons wearing armour only because they are recruited in a certain town. Armour may serve the individual but perhaps made the unit perform worse; as long as this could not be simulated I would be very critical about armour upgrades.

And I foresee the nice discussions related to this. In the first post is a statement which I would dislike totally for example: why should leather be better than linen? Some people would say the opposite or that it depends on the circumstances. Is mail worse than plate? Mail with a soft backing worse than plate? Mail better than scale armour? A lot of questions. The questions occur of course also with a fixed armour (that is: now) but perhaps the solution here allows a few more diversity?

Or the Iphicratic "peltasts", probably being hoplites. I highly doubt the fact they were in any sense better than the classical hoplites. Considering armour alone they should be worse perhaps. I can imagine a lot more questions...

Maybe the EB team (who else) will solve the problems.

[Urnamma]

Leather is not better than linen. It is in fact worse.

We would only use this feature to reduce the total number of units (in order to add more). Doing things like Making Light and heavy libyans merge into one unit, and what not, would be what EB would do with this feature. So don't fear peasants armored in mail anytime soon :-)

[Slim_Ghost]

M2:TW style armor upgrades would be totally awesome. Plain-clothed frameas can be upgraded to wear simple leather and buttressed shields and then later to chain mail with helmet. And then the legionnaires would start at the chain mail and later upgrade to wear the muscled cuirass (lorica segmentata?).

But I fear that this would disturb the historical accuracy of the mod. I mean, it would be very unrealistic if a roman army marches to Swebia (Germania?) and see Germanic warbands clad in iron. Perhaps the armor upgrade buildings would be set at a high price, just like the mines and the ports? That way, the factions with low income (like Swebos) would not easily provide high-quality equipment to its soldiers, and vice versa for the richer factions such as the Selukids, Parthai and Romani.

And speaking of which, I wonder if EB team can implement having cheaper smiths at cities that have mines.

[Ludens]

And then the legionnaires would start at the chain mail and later upgrade to wear the muscled cuirass (lorica segmentata?).

Lorica segmentata is the segmented armour that was in use during the Imperial era. And before someone asks (because the question seems to crop up every two weeks these days): no, it won't be included in EB, because it wasn't in common use until after EB's time-frame. I am not sure how muscled cuirasses were called, but these would have been frightfully expensive, so they weren't used by the rank-and-file.

As for your suggestions: I think it is possible to restrict the upgrades to a certain faction (it was in R:TW, at least), so Roman troops will not be influenced by German blacksmiths. However, what bothers me more is that equiping troops with improved armour wouldn't cost you more than equiping them with normal armour. That is unrealistic.

[Lusted]

However, what bothers me more is that equiping troops with improved armour wouldn't cost you more than equiping them with normal armour. That is unrealistic.

You can edit the cost of upgrades in the edu,

[Ludens]

You can edit the cost of upgrades in the edu,

Yes, but is that cost added to the cost of units when you train them, or just used when re-training them, or for custom battles?

[Lusted]

It's used for all 3 i believe.

[Byzantine_Dragon]

M2:TW style armor upgrades would be totally awesome. Plain-clothed frameas can be upgraded to wear simple leather and buttressed shields and then later to chain mail with helmet. And then the legionnaires would start at the chain mail and later upgrade to wear the muscled cuirass (lorica segmentata?).

But I fear that this would disturb the historical accuracy of the mod. I mean, it would be very unrealistic if a roman army marches to Swebia (Germania?) and see Germanic warbands clad in iron. Perhaps the armor upgrade buildings would be set at a high price, just like the mines and the ports? That way, the factions with low income (like Swebos) would not easily provide high-quality equipment to its soldiers, and vice versa for the richer factions such as the Selukids, Parthai and Romani.

And speaking of which, I wonder if EB team can implement having cheaper smiths at cities that have mines.

Or better yet armor (like ships) would only be available where wealth/iron ore or other metals are available.

I.E. No armor resources in deserts or steppes

[antisocialmunky]

That would be a cool wat to do it but somewhat hard. You'd need to get the script to check for what locations have your resource(in this example, I'll use Iberia) and have it recheck to figure out if you still own it. Then there are the logic issues of people importing the resources or rich people buying resources personally or having armour commisioned. I mean, you do get alot of fancy armours from the steppes. The only reason you don't see uber armour on desert units is the heat. Even then there are the exant specimens of Egyptian scale armour.