Wrong Name of Ligurian City

[tribunus militaris]

HI!

Again in the new EB map I see "Segesta" placed in Liguria, while it was a SICILIAN town.
In Liguria, the most appropiate harbour for MILITARY use would have been Savona or Savo Oppidum Alpinum
and
Vado Ligure or Vada Sabatia
for COMMERCIAL use.

I contacted an EB administrator, but never got an answer, so I guess if I say it here someone will notice it...

EB rules!!!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

This one?

SEGESTA (Sestri), a town on the coast of Liguria, mentioned by Pliny, in describing the coast of that country from Genua to the Macra. (Plin. Nat. 3.5. s. 7.) He calls it Segesta Tigulliorum; so that it seems to have belonged to a tribe of the name of the Tigullii, and a town named Tigullia is mentioned by him just before. Segesta is commonly identified with Sestri (called Sestri di Levante to distinguish it from another place of the name), a considerable town about 30 miles from Genoa, while Tigullia is probably represented by Tregoso, a village about 2 miles further inland, where there are considerable Roman remains. Some of the MSS. of Pliny, indeed, have “Tigullia intus, et Segesta Tigulliorum,” which would seem to point clearly to this position of the two places. (Sillig, ad loc.) It is probable, also, that the Tegulata of the Itineraries (Itin. Ant. p. 293) is identical with the Tigullia of Pliny.

(from Wm. Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography)

The Barrington Atlas shows it right where we have it.

[Warmaster Horus]

I contacted an EB administrator, but never got an answer, so I guess if I say it here someone will notice it...

Well, you got lucky, an EB admin saw it.

[tribunus militaris]

No. I am talking about SEGESTA, the Elymian town in Northwestern Sicily; you are talking about TIGULLIA (Chiavari), a town of the Ligures. And Tigullia was allied to Carthage until 204 BC and therefore defenitely NOT Roman territory when EB starts...
btw Segesta Tigullorum is today's Sestra Levante, it can impossibly be BOTH towns simultaneously

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Segesta is the name of a town in Liguria. It is also known as Sestri. Yes, there is another town in Sicily with that name, but they are different places mate. We are definitely not trying to say they are (that would be bizarre and insane). It is not in Roman territory in EB to start the game, so why are you saying it is?

I answered your question *exactly*. If you don't like the answer, or the citation to ancient references to the place, I don't know what else to tell you. Segesta Tigullorum/Sestra Levante is what we are showing on the map as Segesta. What is the issue here?

[Redmeth]

The Sicilian Segesta was probably not included on the EB map while the Ligurian one was...
EDIT: Another pointless post that brings me closer to 300

[Warmaster Horus]

Just one more Redmeth!

btw Segesta Tigullorum is today's Sestra Levante, it can impossibly be BOTH towns simultaneously

So explain why Lutecia is Paris, or Vesoncio Besançon? Cities evolve, so their names do too.

[tribunus militaris]

The issue is that research developed too, since the times of Gaius Plinius Secondus (whose scientific accuracy is disputable) and the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography which was published in 1854. Modern encyclopedias refer first of all to the Sicilian town, which was really important (disputed endlessly between Carthage and Syracuse) and not this obscure Ligures provincial backwater whose population was only subdued in 155 BC. That's it. There's nothing about liking or not liking your answers. What tetchy kind of idea is that? I am an academic, and not used to such lines of argumentation. And REDMETH: I was referring to the impossibility of two towns (Chiàvari AND Sestra Levante) physically being in the same district, and nothing else. Thank you very much for reminding me that towns and their names develop, I would have forgotten.

[Foot]

But you haven't given any evidence to the contrary of our own, which we have delivered to you. For all we know you could be some crazy loon I'm sure you're not, but come on ... if the research has developed then give us some references we can check up on.

Foot

[Tellos Athenaios]

HI!

Again in the new EB map I see "Segesta" placed in Liguria, while it was a SICILIAN town.
In Liguria, the most appropiate harbour for MILITARY use would have been Savona or Savo Oppidum Alpinum
and
Vado Ligure or Vada Sabatia
for COMMERCIAL use.

I contacted an EB administrator, but never got an answer, so I guess if I say it here someone will notice it...

EB rules!!!

As per Teleklos: we have a Ligurian Segesta, which in that region would have been the most important city... There seems to be nothing wrong with the Ligurian town called Segesta, right?

No. I am talking about SEGESTA, the Elymian town in Northwestern Sicily; you are talking about TIGULLIA (Chiavari), a town of the Ligures. And Tigullia was allied to Carthage until 204 BC and therefore defenitely NOT Roman territory when EB starts...
btw Segesta Tigullorum is today's Sestra Levante, it can impossibly be BOTH towns simultaneously

Ah, perhaps not "right" at all? Well, let me explain: Ligurian Segesta is an Eleutheroi (independent) town at the game's start. Romani actually have to sacrifice many a soul on the altar of the formidable Ligurian garrison in... Segesta!

The Sicilian Segesta was probably not included on the EB map while the Ligurian one was...
EDIT: Another pointless post that brings me closer to 300

Exactly as Redmeth pointed out.

The issue is that research developed too, since the times of Gaius Plinius Secondus (whose scientific accuracy is disputable) and the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography which was published in 1854.

Obviously it did. However, that's no reason for not including a Ligurian Segesta - per se.

Modern encyclopedias refer first of all to the Sicilian town, which was really important (disputed endlessly between Carthage and Syracuse) and not this obscure Ligures provincial backwater whose population was only subdued in 155 BC. That's it.

And we already have three provinces in Sicilia. One with a capital called "Lilibeo" - arguably a more important Elimyan town than Segesta. (IIRC: After a Syrakousian campaign against the former capital of the Carthaginian Elymian territory the Carthaginians withdrew to Lilibeo and made that town capital of Elymia.)

There's nothing about liking or not liking your answers. What tetchy kind of idea is that? I am an academic, and not used to such lines of argumentation.

So is Teleklos. And we would prefer it if anyone who wishes to make a complaint, would check his facts first. Yes there is an Elymian town called Segesta - but there is already a town in the province of Elymia called Lilibeo and that one is far more important in 272 BC.: it's the adminastrative capital. Furthermore, we don't do much without evidence - especially in cases of such well documented peoples as the Carthaginians or Romans.

And REDMETH: I was referring to the impossibility of two towns (Chiàvari AND Sestra Levante) physically being in the same district, and nothing else. Thank you very much for reminding me that towns and their names develop, I would have forgotten.

I believe your call to Redmeth is out of place. As quoted above, he didn't say anything about names of towns evolving or anything. (It's Warmaster Horus who reminded you.) No need to get in a temper here. (I naturally assume you have since you 'shout' Redmeth's name...)

[pezhetairoi]

The issue is that research developed too, since the times of Gaius Plinius Secondus (whose scientific accuracy is disputable) and the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography which was published in 1854. Modern encyclopedias refer first of all to the Sicilian town, which was really important (disputed endlessly between Carthage and Syracuse) and not this obscure Ligures provincial backwater whose population was only subdued in 155 BC. That's it. There's nothing about liking or not liking your answers. What tetchy kind of idea is that? I am an academic, and not used to such lines of argumentation. And REDMETH: I was referring to the impossibility of two towns (Chiàvari AND Sestra Levante) physically being in the same district, and nothing else. Thank you very much for reminding me that towns and their names develop, I would have forgotten.

Yup, an academic not used to such lines of argumentation should definitely also know academia involves proofs and evidence. Some academic you are with the cheek to proclaim it too. I didn't want to get involved here, but i had to say my piece because I can't stand people like you who come in, act all high and mighty, and violate the first rule of internet writing, viz. never to use all caps unless you are shouting. That's bloody rude if you ask me, and I definitely think an 'academic' like you ought to know better than to get emotional about things.

And anyway, if you think being an academic is a very big deal (since you brandish it around like you're trying to demonstrate the mods are inferior) the EB mod team also has academics, and many other academics also post regularly on this forum. They are infinitely more humble than you, and a lot more constructive. Even when their points are shot down or countered, they reply with moderation and a willingness to learn. So if you think being an academic is a really great thing, think again.

Shoot me down if you wish or can, I don't particularly care. This is my two cents' worth. I would've let it go if I hadn't seen your latest post going on about being 'an academic'. Jeez, a university undergraduate freshman is also an academic like the head professor. It doesn't -mean- anything. Before you try your half-baked sarcasm on the mods, think on it: whose creation are you playing? What have you done to contribute to the mod? If you want to raise an issue about the mod no one's stopping you, but you do not be sarcastic, or confrontational, or superior just because you are a full time 'academic' and they are not. The mods are bringing the wonders of history to the online community, and getting huge numbers interested in what things were like in Antiquity. It's stuffy academics like you who nitpick and whine about minor inconsistencies and give history such a bad name.

And anyway. If you want your Ligurian town to be named Vada Sabatia, who's stopping you? Go do a little modding of your own in the game instead of putting down the mod team that brought us EB, if you want the name changed or another three or four provinces added into Sicily to reflect all the important cities. Think about it. If only bustling metropolises had the right to be on the map and not 'backwaters' as you put it, then what, pray tell, would you put in the steppes? The modders had choices to make, and they made the best choices they could. Give them a break, give yourself a break, and go learn to edit a couple of text files yourself if it bothers you so much.
__________________
Sending forth the cohors and manipulae as:


Getting hasty with hastati since 272BC

[Teleklos Archelaou]

By the way, as scripters and traiters must have names of cities and provinces in their files, we decided months ago that this version of the map is the final one (in terms of province and city names and their locations) for EB1. We might tweak roads or borders or things like that, but we have a lock-down on cities and provinces and their names. They want to rip our heads off when we change them anyway, since so many other files have to be changed too - they are very glad we finally have a map settled on. We will definitely be changing things on the map for EB2 on M2TW though, so corrections can be made there.

As for Segesta, that the name is the same as a town in Sicily (even if that Sicilian town is the more famous of the two Segestas) makes no difference to us. What we want to know is what was the most important city in that region in 272 BC. That is why we chose Segesta. I don't see how saying, in 2007, that Pliny is not scientifically accurate makes a hill of beans worth of difference. Cicero isn't scientifically accurate but I think I'll trust him when he's talking about reasonable things, just as Pliny is doing what his whole work is about, talking about regions and the places in them. It's not like he was saying Segesta Tigulliorum was a magical town with a unicorn king or something. I'd worry about it then if he was. Smith's dictionary entry for the place, coupled with Pliny's mention, and then the Barrington Atlas placing Segesta there where we have it, all provide us with legitimate reasons. Academic or archaeological works that would indicate another city in the region being more important at that time would certainly be of interest to us and could lead to us changing it, but till a case is made (besides "another town has that name"), I don't see us making any moves.

Here's a little about it on a website about the modern town: http://www.sestri-online.com/pagina_guida.asp?pagina=6

If one does a search for "Segesta Tigulliorum" the fifth entry is a google book search with the text of Pliny, and the entry will be highlighted.

[Warmaster Horus]

EDIT: nevermind...

[I of the Storm]

That was definitely not a good start on these boards...

@topic (more or less):
tribunus militaris, if you'd like to change settlement names to your preference, just open the preferences-file. IIRC there is a line at the bottom, saying 'edit settlement names' or something similar. Setting this to true will allow you to change names. Only limitation: you have to conquer it first. But since that's the whole point of the game it shouldn't be a problem.
All you have to do then is clicking (or doubleclicking, I forgot) on the settlements name in the settlements scroll. You can then rename it to 'Savona' or 'Tortuga' or '1100010111001' or whatever you feel like. No modding involved, no scripting affected, since thats only the name shown on the campaign map.
Just to provide a pragmatic solution...


btw, I'm an academic too!!! ... Erm, noone interested?... Oh, well *sigh*

[Foot]

That was definitely not a good start on these boards...

@topic (more or less):
tribunus militaris, if you'd like to change settlement names to your preference, just open the preferences-file. IIRC there is a line at the bottom, saying 'edit settlement names' or something similar. Setting this to true will allow you to change names. Only limitation: you have to conquer it first. But since that's the whole point of the game it shouldn't be a problem.
All you have to do then is clicking (or doubleclicking, I forgot) on the settlements name in the settlements scroll. You can then rename it to 'Savona' or 'Tortuga' or '1100010111001' or whatever you feel like. No modding involved, no scripting affected, since thats only the name shown on the campaign map.
Just to provide a pragmatic solution...


btw, I'm an academic too!!! ... Erm, noone interested?... Oh, well *sigh*

Don't do that, it screws up the script that runs EB.

Foot

[Warmaster Horus]

Although I presume you can change the scripts accordingly?

[Foot]

Although I presume you can change the scripts accordingly?

Yah.

Foot

[I of the Storm]

Don't do that, it screws up the script that runs EB.

Foot

In what way, if I may ask? Didn't notice anything strange after I had changed a few names.

[Warmaster Horus]

I think it has to do with the government scripts, and maybe the Roman Reforms.

When the enemy captures a town, the government of that town is destroyed, and a new one is created for the faction. But if you change the name of the settlement, then... it won't work.
As for Roman Reforms, I believe the Polybian Reforms require the player to have Segesta. If Segesta is not found in the game world, then... that won't work.

I think that's it.

[Foot]

In what way, if I may ask? Didn't notice anything strange after I had changed a few names.

Some, not all, but some scripting commands use the external name rather than the internal name of a settlement. Changing the external name will cause these scripting commands to not find what they are looking for and so not work. AFAIK, a lot of the EBBS makes use of these scripting commands.

Foot

[Tellos Athenaios]

^^ IIRC that is to prevent the script from causing problems with senate missions. Or rather, the reverse. (If you played as Brutii in Vanilla you always would receive a mission "take Appolonia" - so the script uses the external EB name (Ambrakia) instead of the internal name (Appolonia).)

EDIT: Never mind the above, then.

[BozosLiveHere]

It has absolutely nothing to do with that. It's just that the SettlementName conditional asks for the external name. This conditional is widely used both in the scripts and in the traits files. And no, before anyone asks, there isn't an alternative that asks for internal names.

[I of the Storm]

Didn't know that. But as I said, I didn't encounter any strange behaviour when I changed the settlement names (yes, the script was on).
I'm sorry for the confusion. Apologies.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

For the player, the only big thing that will happen is that you won't get reforms in that settlement. If the AI were to take that town from you, almost nothing scripted would work right in that town anymore (reforms, government placement, population replenishment, et cetera).

Oh, and you may not be able to win the campaign anymore...

[AntiochusIII]

If the AI were to take that town from you, almost nothing scripted would work right in that town anymore (reforms, government placement, population replenishment, et cetera).

So that's how you drain out the Silver Death hordes. Cultural assimilation as simulated by transforming Antiocheia into Big Syrian City 001.

Quick question: Which name does the trait condition "SettlementName" (or something like that -- the one used for the Eleusinian Mysteries trait and similar stuff) refer to: the internal name or the external name?

[BozosLiveHere]

Post #22.