Interesting Hoplite Tactics

[CountMRVHS]

Been reading some stuff about the Greco-Persian wars (Tom Holland's Persian Fire is particularly recommended), and with that and 300 in mind I've started a Greek campaign, H/H, latest patch.

I'm pleased that the Greeks actually seem to get their cool units fairly quickly; Hoplites and Armored Hoplites are the backbone of my armies, and I'm getting very close to making Spartans already (257).

It's been a long time since I've played the Greeks and I was curious about everyone's tactics with the Hoplite units. "Make a big line and march forward in phalanx formation" is pretty obvious, as is the corrollary "flank with whatever you can find for cav", so I'm looking for things a bit more dynamic than that, something that maybe plays to the great stamina of the Armoreds and Spartans. Or anything really -- any hoplite tactics that have worked well for you, or even those that have failed utterly. Looking forward to input and suggestions,

CountMRVHS

[TruePraetorian]

Now i've personally only tried this a few times but it seems to work against other hoplite-backboned armies. Try lining you hoplites up in a checker-board formation. When the enemies hoplites come marching forward, they will often get stuck fighting the men in front. That's when you move your other men up through the gaps to flank.

I use the line up tactic, it's good and solid providing you have some experience using hoplites . It may be the most basic but it works.

If you really want to try something, try what Alexander did. He would line up his line with all his cavalry on the right side, and would thin out his left side. The left side would then see a much easier side to break (in actuality it was the same strength just a rank or two less). He would then take all of his cavalry and destroy his opponenets cavalry (lucky Macedonian companion cavalry ) Then he would directly attack the enemy General to disrupt morale, then would collide with the enemies atttacking his left flank (because the right flank usually does pretty good ) If you've ever seen Alexander the movie, he even asks his captain to "hold the left"

Hope i've helped

[CountMRVHS]

Ahh, the Gaugamela (?) tactic, right? Someday I'll see if I can pull that off, but I think it would have to be with the Macedonians and their better cav.

I've been very impressed with the Spartans though; I fought a single unit of them against a couple Macedon armies (they got caught in the open as I was transferring them to another city). So I set them up on a hill, phalanx off, and waited for the Levy pikemen to approach, then rushed them down, turned on phalanx, and watched them just chew through the pikes. In a matter of seconds the Levies were down to half-strength and started routing.

Now I can't remember if I switched guard mode off before doing this, but it certainly seemed like the Spartans were pushing forward a lot more aggressively than usual. Any thoughts on guard mode with hoplite units? On or off?

CountMRVHS

[Poulp']

if you want them to advance further and if you're ready to see their formation going awray, turn it on.
in every other case, have it off.

err
yes, that's the other way around

I did it on purpose to see if you were listening, congrats, you passed the test

[CountMRVHS]

I assume you mean that the other way round -- switch guard off to have them advance, but keep it on to have them stay put.

Does guard mode actually decrease kill rates when it's on? I've had decent luck with my hoplites keeping phalanx formation even when it's off, so if they get faster kills that would be a plus. Of course the downside is that they break up the line, but sometimes that's acceptable.

[PapaNasty]

having guard mode on simply means they won't budge if the enemy runs away and they try harder to keep formation. If its off, they are free to "push forward" in attack as you have pointed out. I like having guard mode on when i don't want my units to move (when defending or against multiple waves of attack, or if I want them to wear themselves out against me before I finish them off); and I like having it set to off if i'm attacking over unbroken ground and I want them to be more aggressive.

Keeping in mind the AI tendancy to attack any skirmisher units with cav/chariots or light infantry, when I play as a Phalanx capable nation I usually always set up as a defensive army as follows

Line up Phalanx units in a single, straight line, ready to go (sometimes in two lines, depending on the circumstances and number/quality of units I have). Place skirmishers directly in front of them AMONG the pikes, with the 'avoid melee' button thing turned OFF. This normally causes the AI to run its cav/chariots directly into the phalanx when trying to get to the skirmishers. the skirmishers normally get massacred too but this gets rid of the enemy mobile unts

After that, I have my own cavalry circle to the rear and lighter melee infantry (normally mercs) come around the flanks to engage the enemy, by now normally engaged with my Phalanx. If I have them, archers safely positioned behind the phalanxs provide constant missile fire.

While the melee infantry hits the flanks of the engaged enemy, my cavalry is free to roam behind enemy lines...hit their general, take out skirmishers and archers etc. This also puts cav in a good position to catch routers.

OR

If outnumbered and defending, I set up phalanx units in a triangle, flat edge towards the enemy. Melee infantry and archers are on the inside, skirmishers/slingers still positioned as before to draw enemy mobile units. my own cavalry is set up back behind the "tip" of the triangle so that they have the advantage of a flank attack on any units that try to hit the sides of my triangle. If they are not needed for this, they are protected from missile fire and held in reserve to flank the enemy once they engage the front.

Usually, if no units try and flank, the sides of my triangle swing around to form a triangle with spears facing inwards, facing the rear of the engaged enemy. This nasty move is normally enough to decimate any routers, or any enemy who break off. My cavalry and light infantry now are used to protect the rear of these troops from any enemy missile units or un-engaged infantry/cavalry.

[CountMRVHS]

Thanks for the ideas, PapaNasty.

I found myself doing the "hoplite circle of death" yesterday -- I know I know it's a "cheap tactic" and everything, but I'd never tried it before and I was quite unnumbered and surrounded from all sides. Plus they brought plenty of ballistas and velites and principes and hastati to make life miserable for me... I had to just sit there and watch them unload on my guys before they eventually charged in and got cut down. So I'm only using that one for dire emergencies -- which is exactly how it was intended to be used I imagine. Didn't the Romans have something like that, the "orb" or something where they'd all circle up, swords out, as a last-ditch, we know we're going to die sort of thing?

Anyway, the circle formation means you don't have to worry about flanking -- and that's a big problem with the Greeks. I usually set up my hoplites in a line of 7 or 8, with my 2 of my strongest units on each end and my weakest units in the middle. I make the line into 3 groups -- one for the middle, and one group for the 2 units on each end. I set them off phalanx so I can move them around if I have to.

Behind them I have a few extra hoplite units, any merc infantry, and archers/peltasts along with my general and crappy cav units.

The problem with this is that the AI seems to do a decent job at flanking. Since any enemy *always* has better cav than my Greeks, if they get behind my phalanx line it's a real problem. My one trick is to rotate the "wing" units back from the main front line at a 45 degree angle and move in some of my extra hoplites to help form a wall -- but I can't always do this fast enough and the AI will often outflank *that*.

I'm certainly not getting massacred in my battles, but I feel that I'm a little sloppy with my hoplite tactics and I must be taking more losses than necessary. I can make a great shield-wall and keep it steady, but responding to new threats is very difficult. Rushing a reserve unit of hoplites to the end of a new line and then forming them up in phalanx is doable, but *then* what -- especially when the AI decides to back off and try another part of the line?

[gaiusjulii]

My hoplite tactics are probably on the basic side I did read however one guy saying that he puts his into a triangle? very interesting but i would be worried about the flanks being exposed maybe a diamond shape would prove to be more secure as you have less severe corners to bridge with your flanks, one of my formation in to place my 4 hoplite units in a slightly open L shape more so its like a wide V with the flanks held with cavalry now the tricky part is to Rotate the V either left or right just before you engage so in effect you the side will swing round so hopefully i have explained this correct you will end up with the one flank to back of the enemy, In order to do this you will need your phalanx mode swithced off so your men move quicker and the effect on morale is very bad for the attacking army. then once you have done this you switch on Phalanx and hit them with as many flaming as arrows as you have and charge your cavalry from the flanks to sit directly behind the enemy dont engage these unitil one or units start to rout and then charge in this causes absolute panic.... this works well against slow moving roman armies. I have used this 4 or 5 times and its a Fu-ker to get right but if it works it works very well... my armies consist of 4 hoplite 2 militia hoplite 2 or 3 greek cavalry +1 general cavalry and either 3 units of archers or 4 javeline units (cant remember the greek name)

hope this helps I am pretty new to the battle scene as i always auto resolved in the past....

[guineawolf]

since i found out militia hoplites can fight very well even with just 5 attack and 8 defense,if they lead by a good general(at least 5 star,can do with lesser star general if they(militia hoplites) get better equipment from the FOUNDRY and better training from TEMPLE of NIKE.The appearence of general just bring those militia hoplites higher morale(and not yet count on 3 level exp=+3 attack,+3 defense skill,+3 MORALE from temple of nike)

i use militia hoplites as light infantry,and as regulars in the medium game(mostly i will get faster production from more barracks from many cities that have been conquered to fill up those reserve).It save many Denarii for me.You guys can do that if you got huge population growth.

I use militia hoplites as main army in the start of game since i got no militia barrack yet.I replace the militia hoplites with hoplites after i build every cities of mine(standard buildings,an upgrade of my army production).Only using hoplites when i got better supply.

Armoured hoplites?i use them as heavy armor swordsmen(similiar with legion,can fight alone with their 8 morale)

Well,if you want the tactics?Then i am using my hoplites as swordmen most of the time.Only using phalanxe when i face cavalry base enemy army,and when i need to hold the line and wait for the arrival of my reinforcement(As romans,lorica segmenta legion can do the jobs).

Just click twice at the location behind enemy center line,doing this you will find out how powerful they are(even with militia hoplites),just sacrifice of some defense to get more attack rate,remember not charge,just run toward behind enemy line.When your army get pass to enemy back,click to charge to enemy at the center,then your army will surround your enemy completely(this what i call slaughter) .

The purpose of phalanxe for me just use them to hold enemy charge...then off the phalanxe formation to fight as swordsmen...of coz off the guard mode too..
You can let the guard mode on to hold your enemy long enough for you,coz more tired your troops are,the lower their morale...