Are humans capable of handling democracy?

[Husar]

As long as my generation is in control we call the shots.

There will be a time when this changes and you will be old and dependant on these kids.
Don't work against the hand that is supposed to feed you later.

Waving your underwear around won't help you then.

[Don Corleone]

There will be a time when this changes and you will be old and dependant on these kids.
Don't work against the hand that is supposed to feed you later.

Waving your underwear around won't help you then.

All Adrian did was hold them to the same standard we hold ourselves to. If they want to be treated like rational adults, they should act like rational adults. I think granting the younger generation a pass on whatever they want, because you're afraid of the care they'll provide for you in your older days is a serious mistake.

[Banquo's Ghost]

All Adrian did was hold them to the same standard we hold ourselves to. If they want to be treated like rational adults, they should act like rational adults. I think granting the younger generation a pass on whatever they want, because you're afraid of the care they'll provide for you in your older days is a serious mistake.

At the risk of derailing the thread further, there is no guarantee that once one is elderly, anyone will care at all.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

India grandmother 'dumped on tip'

Authorities in India's southern Tamil Nadu state plan legal action against the relatives of an elderly woman who was found abandoned on a rubbish tip.

Chinnammal Palaniappan, who is thought to be 75, told locals who found her she was driven miles from home in a cattle feed cart and dumped by family members.

She is in the care of local officials while they try to trace her relatives.

Tamil Nadu state Social Welfare Minister Dr Poongothai told the BBC she was "horrified" at the news.

There was no anger in her, only a flood of sorrow as she begged us to take her back to her daughter.

"Once we know who the family members are we are going to take legal action against them," Dr Poongothai told the BBC Tamil service.

She said she believed the woman was partially deaf and had not been fed properly for three days.

"She is under the custody of the state at the moment, and she is being looked after. The police are trying to talk to her."

Locals in Erode district of the state told the AFP news agency of their horror at finding the ill woman lying amidst rotting garbage.

"We heard some moaning from the dump yard and when we went over we were shocked to find an old shrivelled woman lying in filth," housewife P Mohanasundari said.

She and her husband took the woman home and fed her before alerting charity workers.

"Chinnammal broke down recalling how her grandsons put her in their motorcart, which they used for transporting cattle feed, and drove a long distance before dumping her in garbage," Mohanasundari told AFP.

She said the grandmother had recalled how her daughter told her grandsons to leave her far away, so she would not be able to find her way home.

"There was no anger in her, only a flood of sorrow as she begged us to take her back to her daughter," Mohanasundari said.

Elderly people have traditionally been looked after by their families in India, although this is starting to change with the pressures of modern life.

Dr Poongothai conceded that social change was making old people more vulnerable.

But she said the law was clear and if children did not take responsibility for looking after their old parents they could be in breach of the domestic violence act and prosecuted.

[Husar]

All Adrian did was hold them to the same standard we hold ourselves to. If they want to be treated like rational adults, they should act like rational adults. I think granting the younger generation a pass on whatever they want, because you're afraid of the care they'll provide for you in your older days is a serious mistake.

Well, I wasn't really serious(I was hoping the underwear comment would be sufficient as a hint), I think like Adrian sometimes even though I'm only 21 myself.
I deliberately left out the fact that children more or less owe to care for their parents since these people also spent a lot of money raising their children. So I won't dump my dad somewhere in the russian steppes once he is old, don't worry.

[Adrian II]

(..) I think like Adrian sometimes even though I'm only 21 myself.

A serious mistake. Don gave it to you nicely.
I like to shoot youngsters in a ditch and throw away the gun.

[Husar]

A serious mistake. Don gave it to you nicely.
I like to shoot youngsters in a ditch and throw away the gun.

We are very alike, we are very alike......

[Moros]

A year or more ago there was a thread just like this. And I'd like to recite the following words of our old ( and to absent) freind A Saturn:

Democracy is based on the idea that stupidity is preferable over malevolence. We don't have democracy because it finds the best solutions to our problems, but because it avoids the worst.

[/CENTER]

Are humans capable of handling democracy?

Democracy means the rule of the people. So if people can handle themselves, I would say yes. However people can't. People always have best/self interests etc,... People can't handle themselves and thus can't handle others. Thus they cannot handle democracy and thus democracy can't handle the people either. However al modern "democratic" countries - as far as I know - use a system of representatives. Those representatives mostly are trying to get elected for their own sake. This makes the "best interest factor" even bigger.

However a lot of persons doing things for their best interest and different best interests is better than one guy. These guys can't go all the way and more persons share their interests,... However one guy can get really specific and doesn't need to get reelected and thus can go much more further and doesn't have to take the interest of the people and/or country into consideration at all. Also if that one person is really dumb (or perhaps really smart, might be even more dangerous) the country is screwed, if a lot of person are governing at least some shouldn't be forrest gumps.

Thus I guess democracy isn't ideal at all, I can only agree with A. Saturn's words -which are few but powerfull and much better than I ever could.
Democracy isn't the best way of government but the less worse that we know of.

[AntiochusIII]

The pessimism in this thread is making panda cry.

Jeez, have some faith in yourself you bunch of neo-Platonist elitists!!1onetworokunana1!!

Honestly, if I want to see Doomsday The World Sucks We're Gonna Be Killed Democracy Sucks I'd be watching Neon Genesis Evangelion.

There's an old idiom of unsure national origin which speaks of how the Frogs always want a different master. They have this King and they hate him; they have this Consul and they hate him, and they thought the King was great back in the day; they have themselves and they hate themselves still, and they dreamed that the Consul was very wonderful. What don't they hate?

[Moros]

I think I still was quite positive about it...,for me.

[Husar]

There's an old idiom of unsure national origin which speaks of how the Frogs always want a different master. They have this King and they hate him; they have this Consul and they hate him, and they thought the King was great back in the day; they have themselves and they hate themselves still, and they dreamed that the Consul was very wonderful. What don't they hate?

That's applicable in many cases, just think of Windows or the Total War series and there are probably others.

[Adrian II]

We are very alike, we are very alike......

Yeah.. well... I still remember your confession that you once watched an hour long documentary on toilet paper, and watched it till the end...

You know how BG and me are concerned with your personal welfare. We are satisfied with your progress, don't worry, though we still think you should get out more. Cavort at least once a fortnight, fight in bars, learn to ride women without a saddle, you know. You'll get there.

[Brenus]

“There's an old idiom of unsure national origin which speaks of how the Frogs always want a different master. They have this King and they hate him; they have this Consul and they hate him, and they thought the King was great back in the day; they have themselves and they hate themselves still, and they dreamed that the Consul was very wonderful. What don't they hate?”
Frogs? You mean: me? Well, we question every authority and trust none. So, we have a good healthy disrespect for any for any kind of government.

[AntiochusIII]

You mean: me? Well, we question every authority and trust none. So, we have a good healthy disrespect for any for any kind of government.

Heh, Freudian slip maybe?

Really though, there's a difference between questioning authority and distrust of government, which I in fact support, to simply saying "Democracy sucks humanity sucks I alone don't suck" which has been the subject of quite a few posts in this thread. It leaves me wondering what kind of government do they really want.

[Adrian II]

Ah, Frogs and Rosbiff are at each other again, there is profit to be made. Quick, Van der Steen, let's have a Dutch windfall.

[Brenus]

“Democracy sucks humanity sucks I alone don't suck" Well, it is NOT what French, excepted in pubs, will say. We are part of humanity and a lot of books are published every year to explain the downfall of France, how lazy we are, how we lost everything etc… According the French authors, we are between Sri Lanka for the Civil War and Bangladesh for the economical level. Of course, if you want to sell, to have to remind people the French Genius…IN THE PAST. How we were great, the light bulb of the oppressed people, but now the voltage, or amperage, I never knew, is going lower and lower… So we do suck as well.
The Frogs/French have a healthy view on governments because if something is really going wrong, we just go in the streets… A lot of arrogant ministers just fall in ignoring the fact that for a French contestation is just a right. The people we elected to allegedly represent as, when they push too far, they got 2 000 000 people in the streets…

[Banquo's Ghost]

I suspect that the wise AntiochusIII was actually referring to the fable of Aesop titled "The Frogs ask for a King" rather than making a comment on French politics.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

THE FROGS, grieved at having no established Ruler, sent
ambassadors to Jupiter entreating for a King. Perceiving their
simplicity, he cast down a huge log into the lake.

The Frogs were terrified at the splash occasioned by its fall and hid
themselves in the depths of the pool. But as soon as they
realized that the huge log was motionless, they swam again to the
top of the water, dismissed their fears, climbed up, and began
squatting on it in contempt.

After some time they began to think themselves ill-treated in the appointment
of so inert a Ruler, and sent a second deputation to Jupiter to pray
that he would set over them another sovereign. He then gave them
an Eel to govern them.

When the Frogs discovered his easy good nature, they sent
yet a third time to Jupiter to beg him to choose for them still
another King. Jupiter, displeased with all their complaints,
sent a Heron, who preyed upon the Frogs day by day till there
were none left to croak upon the lake.

In other words, let democracy well alone or you will end up with a Heron.

[HoreTore]

I have to say I laughed our loud about some of the other comments in this thread. I love it when self-righteous brats fresh out of high school (or still in it) sound the deathknell of democracy on account of its 'fatal flaws'. I say you guys start paying taxes, raise your own family, get around and visit some really undemocratic countries, develop a taste for the freedom and privilege you are enjoying and for which the generation of my parents nearly all got themselves killed. Then maybe we will talk.

Yeah, like the horrible and oppressive dictatorship of Lichtenstein, and the good, democratic Nazi-germany....

Face it, democracy isn't the thing giving you freedom, free speech and a respect for human rights is. Whether you're in a democracy or not doesn't really matter.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Face it, democracy isn't the thing giving you freedom, free speech and a respect for human rights is. Whether you're in a democracy or not doesn't really matter.

I'm interested.

Which dictatorship has maintained free speech and a respect for human rights for 200 years or more? Which was the dictatorship that enshrined the concepts heretoforementioned? How many dictatorships which usurped a previous democracy improved the implementation of those concepts?

[HoreTore]

I'm interested.

Which dictatorship has maintained free speech and a respect for human rights for 200 years or more? Which was the dictatorship that enshrined the concepts heretoforementioned? How many dictatorships which usurped a previous democracy improved the implementation of those concepts?

Lichtenstein is a dictatorship, you know ;)

[Bijo]

Are humans capable of handling democracy?

Answer: yes. Explanation: it requires not much to minimally partake in it.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Lichtenstein is a dictatorship, you know ;)

Well, most people know of my ongoing crusade to expose the imperial ambitions of the Stealth Nations led by the Liechtenstein Lizard Alliance and their lederhosen-clad hordes, but just for reference purposes, the public face of the country is:

According to the Constitution, Liechtenstein is a “constitutional hereditary monarchy on a democratic and parliamentary basis.”

So I'm still waiting for your answer, I guess.

[Adrian II]

Lichtenstein is a dictatorship, you know ;)

Banquo's Ghost gave you the nice reply, here is my nasty version. Pacifists are among the sloppiest thinkers I have encountered in my many years of travel, reading, activism, journalism and political debate. And I have discovered why that is: they put their own conscience before anything else, particularly facts, logic and efficiency.

[Fragony]

Hmmm sounds familiar.

[HoreTore]

Well, most people know of my ongoing crusade to expose the imperial ambitions of the Stealth Nations led by the Liechtenstein Lizard Alliance and their lederhosen-clad hordes, but just for reference purposes, the public face of the country is:



So I'm still waiting for your answer, I guess.

Well, their prince has more power than our King, and I consider the power he has to be the most a hereditary ruler should have, which is, well, nothing...

But I'll give you that one, it was a stretch. However, Hitler was lawfully elected in a democracy...

[Banquo's Ghost]

But I'll give you that one, it was a stretch.

Indeed. And talking of stretching...

However, Hitler was lawfully elected in a democracy...

Oh gawd, that old chestnut.

OK, we might idle away some time arguing about the precise legality of his election, but much more to the point - how many times did he submit himself for re-election? I take it that you are aware that democracy entails not just the gaining of power but the necessity of relinquishing power at the will of the electorate.

So again I ask, in relation to the ideas of human rights and free speech that you hold dear:

How many dictatorships which usurped a previous democracy improved the implementation of those concepts?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

There has to be at least one example, if only to prove the rule. Where's Tribesman? - I bet he could find one to embarass me with.

[HoreTore]

How many dictatorships which usurped a previous democracy improved the implementation of those concepts?

I don't think there is anyone, but I never said it was?

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Face it, democracy isn't the thing giving you freedom, free speech and a respect for human rights is. Whether you're in a democracy or not doesn't really matter.

What's the point of free-speech in a dictatorship? The dictator doesn't have to listen to you.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I don't think there is anyone, but I never said it was?

You wrote:

Face it, democracy isn't the thing giving you freedom, free speech and a respect for human rights is. Whether you're in a democracy or not doesn't really matter.

That implies that free speech and respect for human rights are not dependent on democracy - whereas it was democracy and the striving towards it that enabled those concepts to exist beyond the theoretical.

Since almost all the alternative forms of government to democracy tend towards dictatorship of one flavour or another, and dictatorships tend by their very nature to remove liberties, I wanted to know - since you appear to find them equivalent nurseries for human rights - exactly which dictatorships have fostered these rights.

[Louis VI the Fat]

How many dictatorships which usurped a previous democracy improved the implementation of those concepts?


There has to be at least one example, if only to prove the rule.

The replacement of the Directoire by the Consulat.

And maybe the Second Empire replacing the Second Republic, but this is debatable in itself, and there was also no usurpation of power either.

[HoreTore]

You wrote:



That implies that free speech and respect for human rights are not dependent on democracy - whereas it was democracy and the striving towards it that enabled those concepts to exist beyond the theoretical.

Since almost all the alternative forms of government to democracy tend towards dictatorship of one flavour or another, and dictatorships tend by their very nature to remove liberties, I wanted to know - since you appear to find them equivalent nurseries for human rights - exactly which dictatorships have fostered these rights.

A-a, you missed this:

Democracy is so flawed it's not even funny. It's better than any of the others tried though, so I'm waiting for a brand new one. No idea what that may be though, I'm no visionary.

Democracies has tortured, oppressed and generally been idiots. In a much smaller degree than dictators, but still way too many times to be considered "the perfect thing". And a lot of the cases are with full popular support too.