Litvinenko case- 4 brits expelled from Russia

[HoreTore]

It's important to signal that Britain refuses to accept Putin's behaviour, and that we do not look kindly on political assassination.

You would have done the exact same things yourselves. Seriously, you need to stop being such hypocrites. Putin has yet to do anything(well, in this case heh..) you wouldn't have done yourself.

[Adrian II]

@ Brenus and HoreTore, I think your moral indifference is not the answer to this problem.

All states are guilty of crimes and abuses because human nature is prone to them and no state can guarantee its complete suppression - indeed, some states are built on them, either because government power is too strong or because, inversely, it is too weak to uphold some sort of public order.

But the insufficiency of governments gives us no license to walk away from a complicated political issue and admire our own clean hands in the way pacifists usually do. Or to argue that the legality of state actions is a luxury for peacetime, as Seamus often says, and admire our dirty hands for lack of principle.

And Brenus, I remember the excuses of the French establishment at the time of the 1985 bombing of the Rainbow Warrior, and they sounded surprisingly similar to yours: What's the big deal, don't we all do it?

[Brenus]

“And Brenus, I remember the excuses of the French establishment at the time of the 1985 bombing of the Rainbow Warrior, and they sounded surprisingly similar to yours: What's the big deal, don't we all do it?”
I do remember.
I think you misunderstand, or perhaps I was not explaining myself enough.
A murder is committed. A suspect has to be interrogated. A Russian being the suspect fled to his own country. Until now, the law was: A country in this position issues an order requesting his extradition, goes with Interpol for an International what ever name it is (I sometime watch FBI cases on National Geographic Channel), and after year of procedures with the local judges, police and politicians, they got their men/man/women/woman.
Now, you are telling me than to blame Putin is normal because Russia as a Jurisdiction refuses to hand over a suspect…
But if Putin would have expelled this man, what is about separation between executive and jurisdictional powers?
The same Newspaper which blame Putin for being a potential dictator are now blaming him because he is not behaving like one. A good ukase, like under the Tsar, and all would be resolved…
It is not acceptable to kill an opponent. I do agree with that. The problem is here I don’t see the real menace Litvinenko represented for Putin in term of Political thingy.

I went in Russia few years ago, and believe it or not, the Russians are happy with Putin. He put in jail (Siberia) the guys who under Yelstin plundered Russia. He gave back the USSR’s lost position to Russia. Prostitutes in Istanbul are not anymore Natashas (well, that I am not sure)…

And I still don’t understand why the UK expelled diplomats for a murder, except if the murderer was in Russian Secret Services. And if so, Russia won’t give him.
So it has to be clearly explained… And the next time the CIA will kidnap and torture (allegedly) a German citizen in Macedonia (FYROM), we know what Germany will have to do: to indict George W. Bush, because according to the new logic, he is responsible of this.

I haven’t a moral indifference; I am fed-up of the Variable Geometry Moral.
In fact, I want to know why when it is Russia/Putin involved, newspaper are re-igniting the good Cold War Rhetoric, and when it is Western Countries/Allies, all is to be with bad apples…

And it is the first time I am suspected to be a Pacifist, after 5 years as professional soldier (ok, long time ago…).

[Adrian II]

So it has to be clearly explained… And the next time the CIA will kidnap and torture (allegedly) a German citizen in Macedonia (FYROM), we know what Germany will have to do: to indict George W. Bush, because according to the new logic, he is responsible of this.

Of course Vladimir Putin, the Russian executive power, is responsible for foreign relations including extraditions. And the Briths expulsion of the four 'diplomats' (the tacit understanding is that they are SVB/formerly KGB) is a response to the refusal to extradite Lugovoi, not in response to the murder itself.

And it is the first time I am suspected to be a Pacifist, after 5 years as professional soldier (ok, long time ago…).

Yes, because you refuse to take sides, even reject any confrontation, over a matter of justice that has great political consequences. You are too good for this world, you are sick and tired of the moral confusion, the conflicting interests and views. Better to cut your losses and stay aloof...

[Brenus]

“Of course Vladimir Putin, the Russian executive power, is responsible for foreign relations including extraditions. And the Briths expulsion of the four 'diplomats' (the tacit understanding is that they are SVB/formerly KGB) is a response to the refusal to extradite Lugovoi, not in response to the murder itself”
So, if I follow you, France should have expelled few US and English diplomats when these two countries refused to expel persons involved in the terrorist bombing campaign…
It is a new kind of justice:
Somebody from your country killed somebody in my country and fled back in your country. Because you refuse to extradite him/her, I expel your diplomats, knowing you will do the same.
Will be exclusivity for Russia or will it be extended to others countries, and others crimes… No, because we have few cases with Canada ….

“You refuse to take sides”: I do take side, I do. Just as much as I refuse political murder (still to be proved, because I still don’t think Litvineneko was a danger for Putin political carrier which will be ended next year if Russian Constitution is not changed…), I refuse the game bad Putin/Russia and good UK/US/France etc. As you rightly reminded us, France did its bits not so long time ago, as US and UK.
I just want to know the rules and what is concealed to us…

[Adrian II]

So, if I follow you, France should have expelled few US and English diplomats when these two countries refused to expel persons involved in the terrorist bombing campaign…

You mean the 1995 Kelkal group bombings, right? Yes, I think Paris should have expelled British and American diplomats as a signal. The US and UK have been extremely irresponsible on these issues, incomprehensibly so. By the way London has only started extraditing such people after the July bombings, just as the US has understood the need for real cooperation (as opposed to hollow statements) only after 9/11 - and now they are overreacting and hitting in all the wrong directions. The field of international relations has never been a pretty sight.

The Litvinenko case is decidedly different though, in that Lugovoi is ex-KGB and there is a serious suspicion that the murder was instigated from within the Russian government. In the Kelkal case there was no such suspicion about the American and British governments.

[Sarmatian]

Why nobody makes a big deal about aproximately 30 people that are currently in Britain which Britain refuses to extradite to Russia to stand trial?

U.S. also won't extradite it's citizens to GB. I wonder if Britain is going to call on US to change it's constitution...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

But the insufficiency of governments gives us no license to walk away from a complicated political issue and admire our own clean hands in the way pacifists usually do. Or to argue that the legality of state actions is a luxury for peacetime, as Seamus often says, and admire our dirty hands for lack of principle.

I do not recall having made just that argument -- though I will stipulate that many of the points I have made separately could be summarized that way, and that I do see some truth in its "luxury" status. I don't revel in it though; it may be a necessary evil, but cannot be a good.


Kafir:

Garfield and McKinley were both assassinated, and both were GOP. Attempts were made against FDR, Truman, Ford twice ( ), and Reagan. The only Democrat President to get killed was Kennedy. Presidential candidates have also been targeted, notably TR, R Kennedy, & Wallace.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You would have done the exact same things yourselves. Seriously, you need to stop being such hypocrites. Putin has yet to do anything(well, in this case heh..) you wouldn't have done yourself.

We would have murdered an Expat who spoke out against the Labour government, and done so in such a way as to make it blindingly obvious it was us?

No, we wouldn't murder a politically difficult Civilian Expat on foriegn soil, and certainly not in that way. If that was the way Britain opperated why weren't IRA men in America turning up dead all the time in the 80's?

[Papewaio]

You would have done the exact same things yourselves. Seriously, you need to stop being such hypocrites. Putin has yet to do anything(well, in this case heh..) you wouldn't have done yourself.

Every man and his dog criticises Howard, including his 2IC... so I don't think it is standard policy for the Australian government to spend potentially millions on rare isotopes popping off critics.

I think it is a sad stretch to assume every nation will kill critics. Most of the civilised ones will silence critics at the ballot box or on the sports field.