Charles Martel - The battle of tours

[Didz]

Well having not read the Quran A can't really comment upon what it does or doesn't say. But if its anything like the Bible it probably contradicts itself on every other page anyway, one minute urging Christians to take an eye for an eye and the next to turn the other cheek.

And the Aisha business is no different to the current theory that Jesus was a practicing homosexual. So there seems to be even more similarities than most of the faithful would like to admit and plenty of opportunity for the gullible to be misled by those with power.

[KARTLOS]

And the Aisha business is no different to the current theory that Jesus was a practicing homosexual. So there seems to be even more similarities than most of the faithful would like to admit and plenty of opportunity for the gullible to be misled by those with power.

it is nothing like that, do a bit of research on the topic it is the mainstream understanding of the facts, wheras any idea that jesus is a homosexual certainly isnt.

[Didz]

it is nothing like that, do a bit of research on the topic it is the mainstream understanding of the facts, wheras any idea that jesus is a homosexual certainly isnt.

My personal view is that all religions are contrived to provide a small power hungry minority with the ability to control the actions of the gullible majority. There is nothing inherent in the messages which causes the problem, only the mentality of the people explioting those messages for their own end and the gullibility of those who listen.

This role is now rapidly being replaced by the media, which is far more effective at spreading propaganda and misleading idiots once it is under the control of a centralised power.

[Incongruous]

My personal view is that all religions are contrived to provide a small power hungry minority with the ability to control the actions of the gullible majority. There is nothing inherent in the messages which causes the problem, only the mentality of the people explioting those messages for their own end and the gullibility of those who listen.

This role is now rapidly being replaced by the media, which is far more effective at spreading propaganda and misleading idiots once it is under the control of a centralised power.

Yes.

I take it you have little respect for the intelligence of people whom practise religion?
I have never believed myself to be overly gullible, nor any of my fellow western Catholics.

[Didz]

I take it you have little respect for the intelligence of people whom practise religion?

I beleive that if people are mature and intelligent then they don't need other people to tell them what to beleive.

Therefore. in my opinon, anyone willing to accept everything they are told to beleive by someone else is by definition gullible, and in if the subject is religious dogma then also usually desperate too.

Consequently, throughout history religion has been explioted by devious people to manipulate the desperate and gullible into doing whatever it is they want from giving them money and food, letting them have sex with their children, killing other people they personally don't like and even killing themselves.

If people were not desperate and gullible then such manipulation would not be possible and those in power would never have bothered inventing it.

[The Stranger]

@Kartlos: As said before you shouldn't look at history with our nowadays morals. Back in those days marrying a 12 year old was quite normal (in some area's). Being an atheist was something abnormal while nowadays it's not, maybe even the opposite. Morals are something that change very quick, and it's proven time and time again, by history. Look at Hitler, I'm not saying that he was the reason for the extreme hatred against Jews (and other minorities) but he did trigger the unleashment of it and used it for his own plans. While now we might think what he did is disgusting (we being the majority of the western world) but maybe in 500 the world has changed into a fascist place where they think what he did is good and he would be an international hero. I know it's hard, sometimes even impossible to look at history with an neutral point of view (something that is generally impossible) but it has to be done. Just saying that that man was bad because he did something that may or may not have been a normal thing back then makes no sense. It's like you save a cat tomorrow and everyone thinks you are a hero, and then 500 years later cats take over the world and every living human will think of you as a dirty traitor of the human race because of that same deed.

And on religion, barely anything in this world is proven beyond all doubt. Science, actually is just the same as religion. It provides a theory to explain things we don't understand. Just saying one is better than the other is total nonsense. Religion is not something that you can put in a box, nor in a book. It's a feeling, it's knowing without truly knowing it. It's something that most people need to survive, that little thing that gives that little amount of hope and power they need to make that last and final push towards their goals. Some people call their religion christianity, others call it Islam, you have people that believe in Science or communism. Yet others do it for those two little sweet blue eyes that stare at them from it's tiny little bet smiling it's teethless mouth. It's all the same, everything in life that you believe in without truly, beyond doubt knowing it's true but you still want to stick your leg out for it can be called religion. Even money can be a religion, that is why most people in the west don't have a standard religion anymore...

[The Stranger]

I beleive that if people are mature and intelligent then they don't need other people to tell them what to beleive.

Therefore. in my opinon, anyone willing to accept everything they are told to beleive by someone else is by definition gullible, and in if the subject is religious dogma then also usually desperate too.

Consequently, throughout history religion has been explioted by devious people to manipulate the desperate and gullible into doing whatever it is they want from giving them money and food, letting them have sex with their children, killing other people they personally don't like and even killing themselves.

If people were not desperate and gullible then such manipulation would not be possible and those in power would never have bothered inventing it.

I think you are wrong. Most people are no shepherds, they are the sheep. How many people are afraid to step up and take a little responsibility, and then i'm just talking about small time things as being the first to enter a dark room, or the first to ask a question or introduce himself. Not many people are and can be a true leader. But still we need them, we need them to feel good about ourselves, to look up to, to be our rolemodels, to protect us, to lead us when whe don't know what to do or don't want to be the ones to do it. If that weren''t true than why do we provide leaders soo much status, money and power. Why do we adore them so much when they succeed and why do we despise them when they fail. Because they represent all that follow them. If he succeeds they all succeed, if he fails we all fail. Look at modern day leaders and celebrities, why do they enjoy so much status? Because they stuck their head above all the others and stood out, they didn't kneel when asked for, but they stood tall even when other people tried to bring them down. We look up to them, hoping we one day will be like them, or even better than them.

And how many people are willing to take that risk, because when you fail you will be outcast but when you succeed you will have glory. But you must not only be willing to take that risk, you must also be capable.

Man or woman or child, it doesn't matter. The bravest, smartest, the wisest, the strongest, the richest, being all this five is enough to lead.

And even the leaders are lead, because also they look up to those that lead before them, they also learn from others and they are lead by those they consider their rolemodel.

But I do agree that religion was and is and will be a thing that desperate people will turn to and will embrace. That is not wrong, but those who exploit them they are being wrong (viewed from our nowadays (western) morals).

(Sorry, I may have misread your post and said some stuff you weren't even talked about :P)

[Didz]

@The Stranger

Hmm!...Ok, you start your last post by saying you think I am wrong and then proceed to basically say exactly the same thing but using different words.

As you say most people are not shepherds they are sheep, and as such need to be told what to believe, who to kill, when to die etc.

I consider these people gullible idiots, but those few people who you acknowledge exist who do have the lust for power will use any means at their disposal including religion to manipulate them and get them to do what they want.

Without such gullible idiots or sheep people like Hitler could never have risen to power, we would not be witnessing suicide bombers killing themselves to order, the crusades would never have happened and Tony Blair would not have last ten minutes in power.

Such people invent the religions that these gullible sheep need to avoid taking responsibility for their own lives and in doing so increase their own power to achieve their personal goals.

Therefore, I have no respect for these sheep at all and would argue that everyone of them is as guilty as the man they allowed into power for the actions that man took in their name.