The Japanese use of cannon

**Nakamura Lobato** · 07-23-2007, 22:47

Hi,

Not a big fan of guns and cannon, but it is becoming increasingly clear that the Japanese did use them in their warfare. There is an interesting discussion over at this forum concerning cannon usage, and even cannon loaded on elephants! I kid you not! I know the unit cards are done, this is just for you information about this period.

Nakamura

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=1806

**Seijitai** · 07-24-2007, 00:31

No problem, Nakamura

The fact that the units cards are done don't mean that new units can't appear later...

About the cannons, it was decided long ago to do not use them on RNJ... They were used only in the end of the sengoku era, and if I'm correct, the main time they were used was in Osaka battle... A bit too late for us, as the game start in 1524 and last until 1600 (4turns per year, so more than 300 turns of game

).

Maybe will we use them for a future extension...

**Tomisama** · 07-24-2007, 02:30

I have done way more study than I ever wanted to do concerning 16th century Japanese firearms, but the questions keep coming up, so the research continues.

The single most reliable source of information on the subject that I have found is the National Museum of Japanese History. The information that they have is pretty much as far as far as you can go backwards in a liner fashion. You can branch out from anywhere along the timeline and collect more data, but can only depend on it, if it squares with the National Museum.

What they have to say about cannons:
(lower on the page)
(most importantly the date of 1570)
http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/e-rekihaku/114/index.html

P.S. And please note, Japanese cannon can be as small as hand held ones below.

**Seijitai** · 07-24-2007, 09:33

I like these hand cannons !

On my answer, I was talking of the large artillery pieces

**Kazuma** · 07-24-2007, 11:46

Originally Posted by Seijitai

as the game start in 1524 and last until 1600 (4turns per year, so more than 300 turns of game

).

The earliest year that you could start playing in the original Shogun: Total War was 1530. So Ran No Jidai will start 6 years earlier?
Did the original Shogun also stop at 1600? Will there be a option to continue playing after 1600?

**Seijitai** · 07-24-2007, 13:22

Exact, we start 6 years earlier... To have enough informations on the clans history until 1524, we translate informations directly from a japanese history database

If I remember well, the original shogun ended in 1600 or 1615... First ending date for us is 1600... But maybe will it last longer in an extension...

**Nakamura Lobato** · 07-24-2007, 14:24

Domo arigato gozaimashita Tomi-sama

That is a wonderful link. I am excited to look around at all of the Japanese artifacts.

Nakamura

By the way I posted your link over at Samurai Archives

**Eufarius** · 07-25-2007, 05:16

it is a wonderful link.

**Paradox** · 12-09-2007, 09:06

Originally Posted by Seijitai

No problem, Nakamura

The fact that the units cards are done don't mean that new units can't appear later...

About the cannons, it was decided long ago to do not use them on RNJ... They were used only in the end of the sengoku era, and if I'm correct, the main time they were used was in Osaka battle... A bit too late for us, as the game start in 1524 and last until 1600 (4turns per year, so more than 300 turns of game

).

Maybe will we use them for a future extension...

They should still be available, cannons were used in the Sekigahara Campaign, not only Osaka.

**AggonyDuck** · 12-12-2007, 19:44

I think one of the reasons why cannons never really catched on among the daimyo of the Sengoku era was that Japanese castle design made cannons rather ineffective tools. Japanese castles were essentially carved on hilltops with a thick stone base making up most of the wall and at the top you'd see a small wall made of bamboo and wood covered with plaster. A cannon couldn't really damage the base due to it resting on earth and the wooden wall at the top wasn't exactly the easiest target to hit, and even then a breach could easily be repaired. The only real use for a cannon would be damaging gatehouses, towers and the keep in addition to other buildings. The resources spent on cannons would usually be better spent on muskets due to their usefulness at both sieges and field battles.

**HKagemusha** · 03-14-2008, 03:58

Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

I think one of the reasons why cannons never really catched on among the daimyo of the Sengoku era was that Japanese castle design made cannons rather ineffective tools. Japanese castles were essentially carved on hilltops with a thick stone base making up most of the wall and at the top you'd see a small wall made of bamboo and wood covered with plaster. A cannon couldn't really damage the base due to it resting on earth and the wooden wall at the top wasn't exactly the easiest target to hit, and even then a breach could easily be repaired. The only real use for a cannon would be damaging gatehouses, towers and the keep in addition to other buildings. The resources spent on cannons would usually be better spent on muskets due to their usefulness at both sieges and field battles.

No actually cannons were quite popular for sieges as a method to end sieges far quicker. Bursting through outter walls, demoralizing enemy troops, and frightening enemy cavalry made them widely popular. The reason they weren't so widely embraced during the early-mid sengoku era is cultural. Oda Nobunaga gained a huge advantage over his rivals by quickly embracing the idea. As you can clearly see the idea then caught on with other daimyo, but not before the end of the oda and hideyoshi regimes