The Japanese use of cannon

[Nakamura Lobato]

Hi,

Not a big fan of guns and cannon, but it is becoming increasingly clear that the Japanese did use them in their warfare. There is an interesting discussion over at this forum concerning cannon usage, and even cannon loaded on elephants! I kid you not! I know the unit cards are done, this is just for you information about this period.

Nakamura

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=1806

[Seijitai]

No problem, Nakamura The fact that the units cards are done don't mean that new units can't appear later...

About the cannons, it was decided long ago to do not use them on RNJ... They were used only in the end of the sengoku era, and if I'm correct, the main time they were used was in Osaka battle... A bit too late for us, as the game start in 1524 and last until 1600 (4turns per year, so more than 300 turns of game ).

Maybe will we use them for a future extension...

[Tomisama]

I have done way more study than I ever wanted to do concerning 16th century Japanese firearms, but the questions keep coming up, so the research continues.

The single most reliable source of information on the subject that I have found is the National Museum of Japanese History. The information that they have is pretty much as far as far as you can go backwards in a liner fashion. You can branch out from anywhere along the timeline and collect more data, but can only depend on it, if it squares with the National Museum.

What they have to say about cannons:
(lower on the page)
(most importantly the date of 1570)
http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/e-rekihaku/114/index.html

P.S. And please note, Japanese cannon can be as small as hand held ones below.

[Seijitai]

I like these hand cannons ! On my answer, I was talking of the large artillery pieces

[Kazuma]

as the game start in 1524 and last until 1600 (4turns per year, so more than 300 turns of game ).

The earliest year that you could start playing in the original Shogun: Total War was 1530. So Ran No Jidai will start 6 years earlier?
Did the original Shogun also stop at 1600? Will there be a option to continue playing after 1600?

[Seijitai]

Exact, we start 6 years earlier... To have enough informations on the clans history until 1524, we translate informations directly from a japanese history database
If I remember well, the original shogun ended in 1600 or 1615... First ending date for us is 1600... But maybe will it last longer in an extension...

[Nakamura Lobato]

Domo arigato gozaimashita Tomi-sama

That is a wonderful link. I am excited to look around at all of the Japanese artifacts.

Nakamura

By the way I posted your link over at Samurai Archives

[Eufarius]

it is a wonderful link.

[Tomisama]

You are very welcome

The link was provided to me be some folks over at the Samurai Archives Citadel.

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/

Another page from the museum on the subject of firearms.

http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/e-rekihaku/126/rekishi.html

Enjoy

[Kagemusha]

The cannon question is really intresting. After all there are many documented occasions of use of cannons and handcannons, but there is also about use of chinese type trebutchets in Onin war. My personal wiew is that while the cannons and other projectile launchers would have historical sources for their use in the mod, those would pretty much make the sieges in the mod peace of cake. Currently we have been working so that the only available options for attacker to use in siege would be ram,ladders and possibly bit modded siege towers, but then with this engine we cant create very realistic Japanese castle towns to begin with. So in the end the option is there,but im not at all sure if we should use it.

[Nakamura Lobato]

Have you spoken to the creators of the Napoleonic 2 mod about this? Could you simply increase the stats of the fortifications?

[Kagemusha]

NTW2 is completely focused on battles and doesnt have campaign in it at all. In a Napoleonic setting the field cannons are an very important part of the battles, but it doesnt have much to do with the siege aspect of this mod, since cannons werent much used in field battles during the period in Japan.

[Tomisama]

Just a few points in time to hopefully demonstrate the high probability that there were cannon being used in Japan (agreed, as siege weapons), in at least the last 30 years of the Ran no Jidai.


*******
1510 Saw the first documented Chinese firearm delivered to Japan. Some say this was a matchlock, some a pole cannon.

Most certainly over the next 33 years, many more found their way from the mainland.

1543 Portuguese matchlocks in Japanese hands.

Remember that Japan had no isolation policy in those days, and with the European and Asian traders ready to do business, the Japanese manufacturing their own, and the needs of a country at war. Well, it didn’t take long…

1553 Estimated 100,000 guns in Japan

1570 The earliest documentation of Japanese manufacturing their own cannon.

1600 Estimated 300,000 guns in Japan.

How many cannon do you think there would be by then?

Oh yes, a little something extra was donated near the very end of the conflict.

The cargo of the ship "Erasmus" was a windfall of Dutch and English weaponry of the time. The ship was of 400 ton class and had 26 cannon. The cargo had 550 matchlocks , 5,000 cannon ball and 5,000 lbs of gun powder as well as chain-shot and shrapnell. The ship itself had a figurehead which was described as Eramus holding a book in his hand and was sometimes called the "Charity". This windfall of weaponry and gunpowder was probably used by Tokogawa Ieyasu at the Battle of Sekigahara.

http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Xa...liam_Adams.htm

[Akeichi Mitsuhide]

The Erasmus is not just a ship if anyone wonders. Its a popular vessel and used for 2 pieces of nice japanese work: Shogun the novel and Shogun the mini-series. Wanna know more ? Look in a book of ship records or go to the museum it is in(less its still on the bottom of the jap sea, in which case u have to dive for it).

[Tomisama]

Ok, the “Liefde” was the actual name of the ship (which means Love or Charity), but the ship, it’s crew, and it’s manifest were very real, and very really in Japan in April of 1600.

"Erasmus", or Saint Elmo (the patron saint of sailors) was most likely only a figurehead on the vessel, and a more meaning full reference to it by it’s English crewmembers (and easier to say than the Dutch name).

There is a monument depicting the vessel in the Yaesu district, Nihonbashi, Tokyo.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_%28sailor%29

[Wundai]

Liefde means love in my country's language ;)

[Paradox]

No problem, Nakamura The fact that the units cards are done don't mean that new units can't appear later...

About the cannons, it was decided long ago to do not use them on RNJ... They were used only in the end of the sengoku era, and if I'm correct, the main time they were used was in Osaka battle... A bit too late for us, as the game start in 1524 and last until 1600 (4turns per year, so more than 300 turns of game ).

Maybe will we use them for a future extension...

They should still be available, cannons were used in the Sekigahara Campaign, not only Osaka.

[AggonyDuck]

I think one of the reasons why cannons never really catched on among the daimyo of the Sengoku era was that Japanese castle design made cannons rather ineffective tools. Japanese castles were essentially carved on hilltops with a thick stone base making up most of the wall and at the top you'd see a small wall made of bamboo and wood covered with plaster. A cannon couldn't really damage the base due to it resting on earth and the wooden wall at the top wasn't exactly the easiest target to hit, and even then a breach could easily be repaired. The only real use for a cannon would be damaging gatehouses, towers and the keep in addition to other buildings. The resources spent on cannons would usually be better spent on muskets due to their usefulness at both sieges and field battles.

[HKagemusha]

I think one of the reasons why cannons never really catched on among the daimyo of the Sengoku era was that Japanese castle design made cannons rather ineffective tools. Japanese castles were essentially carved on hilltops with a thick stone base making up most of the wall and at the top you'd see a small wall made of bamboo and wood covered with plaster. A cannon couldn't really damage the base due to it resting on earth and the wooden wall at the top wasn't exactly the easiest target to hit, and even then a breach could easily be repaired. The only real use for a cannon would be damaging gatehouses, towers and the keep in addition to other buildings. The resources spent on cannons would usually be better spent on muskets due to their usefulness at both sieges and field battles.

No actually cannons were quite popular for sieges as a method to end sieges far quicker. Bursting through outter walls, demoralizing enemy troops, and frightening enemy cavalry made them widely popular. The reason they weren't so widely embraced during the early-mid sengoku era is cultural. Oda Nobunaga gained a huge advantage over his rivals by quickly embracing the idea. As you can clearly see the idea then caught on with other daimyo, but not before the end of the oda and hideyoshi regimes