Building ships on the caspian?

[KARTLOS]

Is it possible to build ships in any of the caspian sea ports?

i am playing as the haysadan. i control all the provinces surrounding the caspian barring cava masakata.
i dont seem to have the option of building a naval port in any of my cities, and spying on masakata it doesnt apppear to have a naval port either.

their is some rebel pirates in the caspian seas so i asumed i would be able to build ships somewhere, am i wrong?

i dont know if i understand eb fully yet, is it the case that there is only a limited number of provinces which will ever be able to build a naval dock?

[Foot]

You are exactly right. Not every coastline was capable of supporting the infrastructure and natural harbours required of military ship building. There is a map in the this thread, showing where the different harbour provinces are. I don't think the map is uptodate though, so it may not be exactly correct.

Foot

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

There was a trick used to keep the pirates from spawning in the Caspian but it ended up breaking trade in the Caspian as well...

[mlp071]

No you can't build ships there .I spent(wasted) tons of money as Sauromatae to build ports there , just to have them permanently blocked by pirates , hehe.

Needless to say i went broke and lost.

[KARTLOS]

There was a trick used to keep the pirates from spawning in the Caspian but it ended up breaking trade in the Caspian as well...

why not give some of the province naval harbours?

if i wanted to change this myself where shoud i look?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

You have to add hidden resources to the appropriate regions in the DESC_REGIONS.txt (and delete the map.rwm). I think 'smallfleet' is the hidden_resource you want (IIRC).

[Swordmaster]

Methinks, gameplay-wise, it would be nice if at least one of those provinces were able to build basic war vessels, even if that's historically incorrect.

[Foot]

Methinks, gameplay-wise, it would be nice if at least one of those provinces were able to build basic war vessels, even if that's historically incorrect.

Not going to happen. Firstly, if only one port could build war vessels, why the hell would you? There would be no-one to fight except pirates, big fat waste of money. Secondly, we don't add things with no basis in historical fact, regardless of a so-called improvement in gameplay.

Foot

[Zaknafien]

Word. My man Foot laying the smack-down.

[Swordmaster]

Point taken, but there is no-one to fight anywhere anyway, except perhaps a solitary Ptolemaic fleet. Investing in war fleets for purposes other than fighting pirates looks like a waste of money, too. (Except perhaps if you're playing with BI).

[KARTLOS]

You have to add hidden resources to the appropriate regions in the DESC_REGIONS.txt (and delete the map.rwm). I think 'smallfleet' is the hidden_resource you want (IIRC).

would the changes work with a current save?

[Barbarossa82]

Not going to happen. Firstly, if only one port could build war vessels, why the hell would you? There would be no-one to fight except pirates, big fat waste of money. Secondly, we don't add things with no basis in historical fact, regardless of a so-called improvement in gameplay.

Foot

Right, but in this case allowing military shipbuilding would be a rational response to an inadvertent, small inaccuracy within EB: the presence of powerful pirate fleets in the Caspian. Surely it makes sense to say that if there had been a problem with pirates interfering with marine trade in the Caspian during EB's timeframe, then nations bordering the sea would likely have responded by constructing their own ships to patrol the routes, or at lease developed the option to do so. It must make some kind of economic sense to tackle piracy, both in game terms and in real life, since they disrupt and plunder valuable trade.

I don't see that allowing some kind of shipbuilding on the Caspian has "no basis" in historical fact - there's been some kind of shipping on the Caspian since ancient days, so I would have thought it would have been feasible to construct shallow-draft patrol boats carrying a few marines with boarding equipment. I'm no expert on ancient seafaring, or on the Caspian, but where you can build and sail cargo vessels then surely you can build and sail some kind of military craft based on the same hull, even if it bares little resemblance to the galleys of the mediterranean.

If the game allows pirates to sail the Caspian in proper military vessels, then oughtn't it to allow for that to be counterbalanced in a manner that's plausible, if not archaeologically attested? Otherwise the neighbouring factions are at a disadvantage, prevented from building ships because they wouldn't have done so had the pirates not been there; when in EB the pirates are there.

Sorry for the longwindedness.

[Foot]

Point well made Barbarossa, except for several small but important facts. Firstly, and most importantly, we don't want pirates on the caspian, but we cannot stop them from spawning there. When we did it stopped all trade between ports, which is something we don't want to do. Secondly, afaik, there weren't enough trees in the nearby vicinity to support large fleets. Thirdly, you may well talk about small shallow-draft patrol boats, but seeing as our representation of ships in the game is of large fleets of 40-60 ships, our system doesn't have space to deal with military vessels on such a small level.

To repeat, if we could get rid of the pirates in the caspian we would. We can't, but please just ignore them as much as possible.

Foot

[Xehh II]

How can you ignore them if they're blockading your ports?

[Tellos Athenaios]

*If you can't*, however, you may want to search the net or forums for some cheat which allows you to teleport your characters to any given location - provided that the type of character can exist there (i.e. admirals on dry land is a bit tricky).
You can find the location you want by pointing your cursor at it; entering the RomeShell (press [~]) and typing:

show_cursorstat

[Barbarossa82]

Point well made Barbarossa, except for several small but important facts. Firstly, and most importantly, we don't want pirates on the caspian, but we cannot stop them from spawning there. When we did it stopped all trade between ports, which is something we don't want to do. Secondly, afaik, there weren't enough trees in the nearby vicinity to support large fleets. Thirdly, you may well talk about small shallow-draft patrol boats, but seeing as our representation of ships in the game is of large fleets of 40-60 ships, our system doesn't have space to deal with military vessels on such a small level.

To repeat, if we could get rid of the pirates in the caspian we would. We can't, but please just ignore them as much as possible.

Foot

Point taken. It's a shame that there aren't enough unit slots to have some kind of patrol boat to counter the pirates, but given the limitations I certainly wouldn't want to sacrifice one of the existing units to accomodate it.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

1. Foot, you said it's a "big fat waste of money" to build a naval ports and a fleet just to hunt down the pirates. I say, at first it's an even bigger waste of money to upgrade your trading harbours there only to have them blocked by the pirates, and secondly building fleets outside in the mediterranean / ocean is just for the same reason only except you're playing with BI, besides of shipping around troops of course.

2. You said "there weren't enough trees in the nearby vicinity to support large fleets". Well, please take a look at the province of Hyrkania, and what you will most likely notice is the sheer abundance of trees there, just in the direct vicinity of the Caspian Sea. So either you aren't right about the trees or the map.

3. You said "our system doesn't have space to deal with military vessels on such a small level", talking of shallow-draft patrol boats. I think that the smallest size of boats, I think Pentecontarai, would be perfect to represent those shallow-draft patrol boats. They aren't big, they aren't expensive, and they are buildable with the smallest size of naval port.

I think Zadrakata, Hyrkania is a perfect place to allow for the construction of those little ships. Otherwise, the Caspian Sea is a little bit "Dead Sea", almost useless for the player, only a big hole in the map.

[KARTLOS]

You have to add hidden resources to the appropriate regions in the DESC_REGIONS.txt (and delete the map.rwm). I think 'smallfleet' is the hidden_resource you want (IIRC).

are you sure that is the name of the file? i cant find it?

[Tellos Athenaios]

1) You can't just use any kind of tree to build a ship. Only few types of tree allow for lightweight yet strong constructions wich also were waterproof - and the wood needed to have 'aged': if it hadn't water could get into the timber itself.
2) I find most pirates to do nothing but run a shipping business between Prhaaspa and Zadrakata. They don't block my ports. They just... sail. And not because my Seleukid kingdom has been kind to the independents in the past or some such thing.

[Tellos Athenaios]

are you sure that is the name of the file? i cant find it?

The DR file should be located in the \Maps\Base folder.

[KARTLOS]

The DR file should be located in the \Maps\Base folder.

found it, is this going to work with a current save?

i am going to give it a go

[Bootsiuv]

After finally downloading and playing EB for the first time, I was at first blown away by how much more informaton the campaign map seems to convey, with all of the vineyards, quarries, small towns, etc. It really livens things up. I also am enjoying all of the descriptions....I've learned quite a bit about ancient military technology thanks to this game, and more specifically this mod. So, I'm sure you've heard this a million times, but thanks for the great mod.

That being said, I do have a few, small criticisms I would like to speak about.

BTW, this is EB v.0.8.1a V2, with no mods whatsoever. I decided to play vanilla EB at first, to get the full experience before I mod the game to suit my tastes.

As far as A.I. progression goes, it's gone rather well. I haven't really been able to blitz, which I'm thankful for. By 245 BC, I've only been able to conquer Korinthos, Demetrias, Pella, Thermon, Chalcis, and Kydonia. I'm allied with the Ptolemaioi, Baktria, and Epeiros. Ptolemaioi are doing rather well in Anatolia, Carthage is a real powerhouse in western North Africa, and Roma is allied with Carthage, with Epeiros as a client kingdom (even though Epeiros seem to be doing quite well, as they control the entire dalmatian coast all the way up the Adriatic, and they've managed to maintian control of Tarentum as well).

Anyways, I only have two criticisms as of right now, and they both involve pirates.

1. In 245 BC, there are at least 5 massive pirate fleets in the Aegean alone. I can generally only afford 2 fleets. Trying to control all of those islands in the Aegean with two fleets vs. some pirate fleets which are nearly 10 times as strong as my own fleet is fairly impossible. Is there any way to tone those pirate fleets a bit? I usually enjoy pirate fleets, as they add another challenge to the game, but this is just silliness.

2. Please allow me to build naval vessels on the Caspian Sea. I find it hard to believe that there has never been a military naval vessel built on that sea. Quite frankly, even if there wasn't, it should be allowed. Perhaps one on each coast. Otherwise, you're sort of nuking the steppe peoples ability to get money, as the pirate fleets inevitably blockade their ports. For countries like Sauromatae and Pahlava, this can be a serious hindrance on an early economy.

Aside from those minor quibbles, I am really enjoying your mod, and know that I'll never be able to play vanilla RTW again.

Thanks for your time.

[Ravenic]

As far as pirates go, as I understand it, they spawn somewhere secluded, like the Black Sea, or up around the Baltic, and there collect because of no naval power to oppose them. Then, they swim on down to the Mediterranean with a full stack, because what started out as a very small fleet slowly built up over years.

It wouldn't surprise me if your pirate's there had celtic or some kind of northern name.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Changes to the hidden_resources shouldn't cause big problems. If you delete the map.rwm, it should be save game compatible. (It may not be 100% safe and may cause problems, but I do it all the time and haven't had any problems that I could connect to the HRs.)

You could just cheat and teleport a fleet to the Caspian and kill the pirates, then leave it there to kill future pirates...

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

1- Yeah, the pirates just collect into large groups and don't start as such. They seem to collect in little inlet sea areas where they get stuck. They may be weakened in the future.

2- There is a whole thread going on this right now. Basically, each EB 'ship' equals a fleet. The number in the corner is the number of ships, not people. And whereas there might be ships on the Caspian, it would be inappropriate to have large fleets there.

[Bootsiuv]

1- Yeah, the pirates just collect into large groups and don't start as such. They seem to collect in little inlet sea areas where they get stuck. They may be weakened in the future.

2- There is a whole thread going on this right now. Basically, each EB 'ship' equals a fleet. The number in the corner is the number of ships, not people. And whereas there might be ships on the Caspian, it would be inappropriate to have large fleets there.

I'm glad to hear that the pirates may be weakened. They were rather easy to deal with in the beginning, but the last fleet had over 200 ships, including 3 great fleets, and several small fleets. My ports are constantly besieged.

As to the second part of your post, I understand that there weren't any large fleets on the Caspian Sea, but after 272 BC, the game doesn't match history anyways. I also think it's quite ahistorical to restrict ship-building on ANY sea, as all seas had merchant and military vessels. I also find it hard to believe that a fleet of 27 ships has never been assembled on the Caspian. Personally, I don't see why, if two powers controlled different regions of the caspian sea, they would never fight in a naval engagement. As a matter of fact, they would probably invade the other by sea, as this was the easiest and cheapest ways to move troops and supplies, and would be far easier than walking all the way around. I'm not talking Triere fleets or anything, Pentoconter fleets would suit me just fine. Hell, even Lemboi fleets would be better than nothing.

Thanks for your responses.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Based on my experience with EB pirates: the way to get rid of them is to ignore them. Attack them, and they'll retaliate. Stay out of their way, pretend not to know about them blockading one port once in a while, and make sure your fleets are out of pirate attacking range. Pirates really come and go, and only stay if you hinder them.

[KARTLOS]

i made the edit, it seem to have worked

[Bootsiuv]

You could just cheat and teleport a fleet to the Caspian and kill the pirates, then leave it there to kill future pirates...

Well, if you're going to encourage that, why not just let small ships be built in the caspian? That seems a lot less ahistorical than teleporting fleets from the mediterranean.

[Tellos Athenaios]

A fortiori?

1) Ships in Caspian sea *not needed*, IIRC. Yes their are pirates, and yes they do move. So what? Those pirates hardly ever blocked my ports. (I currently own 2 out of the 6 available.)
2) Ships like we know it in EB simply wouldn't have worked there. Patrol boats hardly make for a fleet.
3) It's a pity that we can't prevent the pirates from being spawned there, without killing off the local sea trade. (Really does make you wonder what the merchants traded unofficially, now doesn't it? )
4) So: either cheat, or ignore. And think of the bright side of Caspian Piracy: the more pirates that gather in the Caspian the less do elsewhere in far more important regions.