Building ships on the caspian?

[Zaknafien]

its not a matter of if they would have wanted to, its a matter of the right kinds of materials availbile in sufficient numbers to create a fleet.

[KARTLOS]

its not a matter of if they would have wanted to, its a matter of the right kinds of materials availbile in sufficient numbers to create a fleet.

I got to admit though I do like Neitos . Nothing more satisfying than disciplined "barbarians" cutting down "civilized" people .

if a large empire had the desire the would have been more than capable.

[Tristuskhan]

its not a matter of if they would have wanted to, its a matter of the right kinds of materials availbile in sufficient numbers to create a fleet.

Caucasus and northern Persia still have densely forested areas, enough to provide building materials for a navy in the Caspian, as far as I know.

[Foot]

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

[NeoSpartan]

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

darn it Foot you beat me to it..... haha


Fellas, don't forget this isn't just anyother mod, this is a Historical Mod. If you want major changes, please provide evidense, otherwise..... Foot is gonna put his foot down!

[KARTLOS]

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

im not bothered whether you change it, it wasnt too difficult to do it myself. i bow to your teams historical knowledge and i am not aware of there being naval conflict on the caspian within the time period.

here is an wiki about the rus raids on the caspian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian...ons_of_the_Rus

they apparantly had a fleet of 500 ships, which does perhaps show that building a caspian navy was practically possible in the time period, though may never have been cotemplated at that time.

i am not sure where they got the wood for their ships, they quite probably built them in north-east europe and then sailed them down the rivers. they would theorietcally be an equally viable option during eb's time frame. i find it hard to believe that there is no suitable wood in any territory surrounding the caspian.

the fact is the people dominating the territory surrounding the caspian, tended to be horse-riding cultures never much interested in sailing. to my knowledge no persian/iranic culture ever did much navally, including in the persian gulf. in eb the steppe cultures are able to build ships as it is presumably envisaged that had they reached the med or the black sea they would have co-opted the local naval traditions.

i think it is feasible that my haysadan empire which rules all territories surrounding the black sea, could have built a caspian fleet had they so wished.

[Olaf The Great]

I personally went into descr_unit and brand down costs of ships to about 1/4 of their oringinal cost :P

[Starforge]

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

I'm ok with whichever way you work it but here's at least 1 port city that dates back to the EB time period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derbent

Having a trading port means that there are / were ships available on the Caspian and if you can make a trading ship - you can make a warship. Perhaps piracy wasn't an issue or the dominant countries of the time didn't wage any sea warfare. From what I managed to gleam, admittedly from web searches, is that there hasn't been extensive work done on the Caspian in terms of underwater research.

Given that there IS trade I would find it highly unlikely that (given the greedy SoB's human beings are) there wasn't piracy and also highly unlikely that the greedy SoB's getting pirated wouldn't do something to try and stop it :).

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Good point. The merchants can build ships, the pirates can build ships (and not few), but an organized state can't.

The pirates don't block my ports often, so that's not the problem. I can ignore them and I do so.

If you say there's no historical evidence, OK. I understand that completely, although I think a game like EB is not only on what's historical, but also very much on what's historically feasable, presumable.

[Bootsiuv]

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

A mini-mod made by someone in the community would do fine for me. I just think it's silly to forbid fleet building on any sea of considerable size. I understand it's a historical mod, but like I said, any correlation with real history stops in 272 BC, when the game starts. From then on, it's an alternate history. But, we can just agree to disagree. After all, it's not my mod. You should definitely create it how you see fit.

[KARTLOS]

A mini-mod made by someone in the community would do fine for me. I just think it's silly to forbid fleet building on any sea of considerable size. I understand it's a historical mod, but like I said, any correlation with real history stops in 272 BC, when the game starts. From then on, it's an alternate history. But, we can just agree to disagree. After all, it's not my mod. You should definitely create it how you see fit.

follow the instructions within this thread, the changes take 2 minutes and are save game compatible.

[Swordmaster]

Indeed, those ships of the Rus' were built in Scandinavia, not in or near the Caspian.

[The Persian Cataphract]

While there was certainly a local industry for building transporters and such to a lesser extent, and some scant trade by sea, no Parthian cities in the area bolstered any significant port, and there was no economically competitive nor significant factor in the northern reaches, thus as a consequence there is no reason to expand any industry of transporters beyond local needs, let alone vessels of war. Out of all the great waters, the Caspian Sea, beyond rich stocks of fish (The famed Persian sturgeon), and in spite of rich coastal areas, in particular the fertile Albania and well-watered Hyrcania famed for her dense forests, add to the the fact that the Sarmatians to the north did not share the same taste of commercial enterprise as the Parthians to the south. Hence, the Caspian area is not very lucrative at all in matter of trade. You can still build sizeable places of trade, but not beyond the possibilities for expansion, let alone a base for a navy.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Can you make that into a good FAQ type answer and drop it in the FAQ thread TPC? Or Foot? That would be nice. We have this question asked from time to time.