Building ships on the caspian?

[Ravenic]

If the EB team takes a hardline stance against naval bases on The Caspian, and other area's like it, then why not limit the military ports to only the most basic fleets, like Lemboi as Bootsiuv suggested.

Hell, perhaps it could even be considered to have a small, inferior quality fleet recruited at mercantile-level ports called "Patrol Fleet", or "Coastal Defense Fleet", or something of that manner.

[Starforge]

If there are pirate warships on the Caspian then someone built the things unless they were portaged from the Med

Unfortunately, unless you can restrict where the AI plops the pirate ships, adding a few non-historical shipyards should go very well with the non-historical pirate scourge.

[Thaatu]

Pirates are a pain in VH (because of autoresolve), but just recently in my Aedui campaign, which is H/M, I built one unit of some large ships that I can't name. They were, I believe, the best naval unit the Celts get with recruitment cost 10,000 and upkeep some 3,000 mnai. That one fleet with 50 ships (men) attacked a pirate fleet with 20 units, two of which were "Great pirate fleets", 1050 ships altogether. Heroic victory. My fleet lost about 20 ships, sinking almost 400. See, the secret in dealing with pirates is that their ships are like canoos. A real military fleet can handle any sized pirate horde.

[Bootsiuv]

Pirates are a pain in VH (because of autoresolve), but just recently in my Aedui campaign, which is H/M, I built one unit of some large ships that I can't name. They were, I believe, the best naval unit the Celts get with recruitment cost 10,000 and upkeep some 3,000 mnai. That one fleet with 50 ships (men) attacked a pirate fleet with 20 units, two of which were "Great pirate fleets", 1050 ships altogether. Heroic victory. My fleet lost about 20 ships, sinking almost 400. See, the secret in dealing with pirates is that their ships are like canoos. A real military fleet can handle any sized pirate horde.

I actually was going to mention that....they do seem to die fairly easily. My 27 ship Penteconter fleet defeated a fleet of over 200 pirate ships.

The only problem is that sometimes they don't win.

I'm playing KH, and have a small greek empire going. I control Sparte, Korinthos, Athenia, Thermon, Demetrias, Pella, Chalcydis, and Kydonia. After pushing Makedonia off of the mainland (they control Bithynia and Lesbos), I decided to try for a re-attempt of the athenian invasion of Sikilia, hoping to bring Syrakousia into the Koinon. My fleet of 53 Penteconters was forced to fight three battles in the south Adriatic, and the entire fleet was lost on the fourth battle in one turn (along with my entire 20 unit stack, which included a young general who was just married into the family).

After that debacle, I tried for an invasion of Kyrenaica, and met with more success, but I still had to wade through over 400 pirate ships to reach the North Africa coast....I was just fortunate to have won all of the battle that turn. It's just a little much is all.

That, however, I could probably deal with. I really can't help but disagree with the developers insistence on not allowing even Lemboi fleets in the Caspian Sea. Perhaps someone knowledgeable could create a mini-mod to alleviate this for those who would like the option, even if it will be rarely used.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Well, if you're going to encourage that, why not just let small ships be built in the caspian? That seems a lot less ahistorical than teleporting fleets from the mediterranean.

I wasn't really indorsing doing so. I personally, ignore pirates in the Caspian.

[Bootsiuv]

I wasn't really indorsing doing so. I personally, ignore pirates in the Caspian.

Fair enough. Like I said, they're minor quibbles. It's definitely the funnest mod I've played thus far (well, this and ROP Beta 2.1)

[geala]

First I was also annoyed about the pirates, especially one time when they sunk my Lemboi fleet with my newly recruited invincible full stack super elite army on board.

On the other hand seafaring in the ancient world was dangerous and great losses occured frequently. So I take the pirates as the avatars of the danger of the sea itself (cause there are no storms etc. in EB).

And imagine the feeling you get when later your triere fleets wipe the pirates from the sea. Before that time you have to be careful and suffer a bit.

If you cannot afford to loose a fight, use the console (^ button on my board) and type "auto_win defender".


I like very much the posted idea that a small fleet or single ships could be recruited in mercantile ports. That would be great for reconnaissance and patroling alike. Perhaps also naval mercenary ships are possible which could be recruited in sea provinces?

[Foot]

I like very much the posted idea that a small fleet or single ships could be recruited in mercantile ports. That would be great for reconnaissance and patroling alike. Perhaps also naval mercenary ships are possible which could be recruited in sea provinces?

We can do merc ships in EB2, but not in RTW. Don't know if we will have merc ships of course.

Foot

[Starforge]

Pirates are a pain in VH (because of autoresolve), but just recently in my Aedui campaign, which is H/M, I built one unit of some large ships that I can't name. They were, I believe, the best naval unit the Celts get with recruitment cost 10,000 and upkeep some 3,000 mnai. That one fleet with 50 ships (men) attacked a pirate fleet with 20 units, two of which were "Great pirate fleets", 1050 ships altogether. Heroic victory. My fleet lost about 20 ships, sinking almost 400. See, the secret in dealing with pirates is that their ships are like canoos. A real military fleet can handle any sized pirate horde.

I've never personally tried that method. I'm all about access to repair shops to save experience so my usual anti-pirate fleet (and this works quite well for my Roman empire) is 5 of the second cheapest warship you can buy. This will take a great pirate fleet with minimal losses and once you have some experience, pretty much no losses (and easy to replace if you do).

I can see smaller countries with larger borders to cover having a harder time with this though.

[KARTLOS]

i can understand ed's reasons for not allowing ship production on the caspian. ive modded the game to allow it though. partially i was annoyed about the pirates, and partially because my empire encompasses the caspian and i would like to be able to transport units accross it. though it was not a technique used in this time period i dont think it is beyond the realms of possibility that an inspired ruler would build a transport fleelt there. 1000yrs later the vikings did go raiding in iran and armenia via the caspian.

[Zaknafien]

its not a matter of if they would have wanted to, its a matter of the right kinds of materials availbile in sufficient numbers to create a fleet.

[KARTLOS]

its not a matter of if they would have wanted to, its a matter of the right kinds of materials availbile in sufficient numbers to create a fleet.

I got to admit though I do like Neitos . Nothing more satisfying than disciplined "barbarians" cutting down "civilized" people .

if a large empire had the desire the would have been more than capable.

[Tristuskhan]

its not a matter of if they would have wanted to, its a matter of the right kinds of materials availbile in sufficient numbers to create a fleet.

Caucasus and northern Persia still have densely forested areas, enough to provide building materials for a navy in the Caspian, as far as I know.

[Foot]

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

[Hooahguy]

Based on my experience with EB pirates: the way to get rid of them is to ignore them. Attack them, and they'll retaliate. Stay out of their way, pretend not to know about them blockading one port once in a while, and make sure your fleets are out of pirate attacking range. Pirates really come and go, and only stay if you hinder them.

ya, ive noticed that if all your fleets stay in port, there are none. i havent seen a single pirate fleet for over 30 turns. maybe its because im after the marian reforms, when piracy was suppressed.

[Foot]

ya, ive noticed that if all your fleets stay in port, there are none. i havent seen a single pirate fleet for over 30 turns. maybe its because im after the marian reforms, when piracy was suppressed.

We can't control the spawn rate of pirates, so it has nothing to do with you passing the marian reforms. The suppression of piracy was an act made by people. If you want pirates to stop, you have to hunt them down.

Foot

[Lysander13]

If you want pirates to stop, you have to hunt them down.
Foot

Ahhhh...A strategy after my own heart. Although a costly one...as it should be of course.

[mlp071]

ya, ive noticed that if all your fleets stay in port, there are none. i havent seen a single pirate fleet for over 30 turns. maybe its because im after the marian reforms, when piracy was suppressed.

I would more think that other factions developed and are able to fight pirates with better ships, therefore killing them more efficiently

[NeoSpartan]

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

darn it Foot you beat me to it..... haha


Fellas, don't forget this isn't just anyother mod, this is a Historical Mod. If you want major changes, please provide evidense, otherwise..... Foot is gonna put his foot down!

[KARTLOS]

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

im not bothered whether you change it, it wasnt too difficult to do it myself. i bow to your teams historical knowledge and i am not aware of there being naval conflict on the caspian within the time period.

here is an wiki about the rus raids on the caspian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian...ons_of_the_Rus

they apparantly had a fleet of 500 ships, which does perhaps show that building a caspian navy was practically possible in the time period, though may never have been cotemplated at that time.

i am not sure where they got the wood for their ships, they quite probably built them in north-east europe and then sailed them down the rivers. they would theorietcally be an equally viable option during eb's time frame. i find it hard to believe that there is no suitable wood in any territory surrounding the caspian.

the fact is the people dominating the territory surrounding the caspian, tended to be horse-riding cultures never much interested in sailing. to my knowledge no persian/iranic culture ever did much navally, including in the persian gulf. in eb the steppe cultures are able to build ships as it is presumably envisaged that had they reached the med or the black sea they would have co-opted the local naval traditions.

i think it is feasible that my haysadan empire which rules all territories surrounding the black sea, could have built a caspian fleet had they so wished.

[Olaf The Great]

I personally went into descr_unit and brand down costs of ships to about 1/4 of their oringinal cost :P

[Starforge]

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

I'm ok with whichever way you work it but here's at least 1 port city that dates back to the EB time period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derbent

Having a trading port means that there are / were ships available on the Caspian and if you can make a trading ship - you can make a warship. Perhaps piracy wasn't an issue or the dominant countries of the time didn't wage any sea warfare. From what I managed to gleam, admittedly from web searches, is that there hasn't been extensive work done on the Caspian in terms of underwater research.

Given that there IS trade I would find it highly unlikely that (given the greedy SoB's human beings are) there wasn't piracy and also highly unlikely that the greedy SoB's getting pirated wouldn't do something to try and stop it :).

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Good point. The merchants can build ships, the pirates can build ships (and not few), but an organized state can't.

The pirates don't block my ports often, so that's not the problem. I can ignore them and I do so.

If you say there's no historical evidence, OK. I understand that completely, although I think a game like EB is not only on what's historical, but also very much on what's historically feasable, presumable.

[Bootsiuv]

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

A mini-mod made by someone in the community would do fine for me. I just think it's silly to forbid fleet building on any sea of considerable size. I understand it's a historical mod, but like I said, any correlation with real history stops in 272 BC, when the game starts. From then on, it's an alternate history. But, we can just agree to disagree. After all, it's not my mod. You should definitely create it how you see fit.

[The Persian Cataphract]

While there was certainly a local industry for building transporters and such to a lesser extent, and some scant trade by sea, no Parthian cities in the area bolstered any significant port, and there was no economically competitive nor significant factor in the northern reaches, thus as a consequence there is no reason to expand any industry of transporters beyond local needs, let alone vessels of war. Out of all the great waters, the Caspian Sea, beyond rich stocks of fish (The famed Persian sturgeon), and in spite of rich coastal areas, in particular the fertile Albania and well-watered Hyrcania famed for her dense forests, add to the the fact that the Sarmatians to the north did not share the same taste of commercial enterprise as the Parthians to the south. Hence, the Caspian area is not very lucrative at all in matter of trade. You can still build sizeable places of trade, but not beyond the possibilities for expansion, let alone a base for a navy.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Can you make that into a good FAQ type answer and drop it in the FAQ thread TPC? Or Foot? That would be nice. We have this question asked from time to time.

[KARTLOS]

A mini-mod made by someone in the community would do fine for me. I just think it's silly to forbid fleet building on any sea of considerable size. I understand it's a historical mod, but like I said, any correlation with real history stops in 272 BC, when the game starts. From then on, it's an alternate history. But, we can just agree to disagree. After all, it's not my mod. You should definitely create it how you see fit.

follow the instructions within this thread, the changes take 2 minutes and are save game compatible.

[Swordmaster]

Indeed, those ships of the Rus' were built in Scandinavia, not in or near the Caspian.