Wardogs- Too powerful or not?

[Asimov]

Apart from the slingers, I am also very interested in the wardog unit. It seems that they can deal all type of enemies, from Inf to Cav, the dogs would drag them down and tear them to pieces. Granted, I'm using Julii so most of enemies fielded light units only, but even Carthagians were poor in dealing with rabies. What is your opinion on the dogs, my fellow warmongers?

[Basileus]

I dont like em so i dont use em, ive only used them once early on and they preety much kick ass and never stop to chase evry unit around heh

[TosaInu]

Dogs have trouble to kill elephants.

They have strong and weak points.

All to often they attack 1 unit and chase that unit off the map even if only 1 enemy survives.

They are nice to assault open gates. Not only can they kill some, it also doesn't matter how many die, the handlers are normally away from danger and you'll get a full fresh unit in the next battle.

[CBR]

Oh I remember that battle clearly Tosa. Good thing I had an elephant unit

Havent dont many experiments with them but from what I have seen so far I would say they do seem a bit too powerful..

And I'd still consider them to be a fantasy unit anyway.


CBR

[Red Harvest]

I don't train wardog units. I sometimes use the ones the senate give me. I consider them overpowered and more like a fantasy unit there for variety.

Then again, I don't fear dogs, even the supposed big vicious ones. Given the choice of fighting armed men or fighting dogs...well, the choice is pretty easy.

[aw89]

when they got some chevrons, you see clearly how overpowered they are.

[dedmoroz]

i use wardogs in 3 cases:
1. Slow down frontal assault to buy my skirmishers more time.
2. city assaults - dogs will always go in first.
3. Flanking with dogs.

i use only 2 or 3 units of wardogs in full army.
u cant rely on them too much though because they suck against heavy infantry and cavalry.

[Red Harvest]

i use only 2 or 3 units of wardogs in full army.

That's almost like saying "I only use 2 or 3 units of elephants per army," not because of their relative effect, but because having 2 or 3 special units in a single army stack is a rather large portion of the force.

[chemchok]

IMO, wardogs are overpowered.

Part of the problem is that their numbers are restored after every battle.

As for combat, even if they don't kill units, they are excellent at harrassing them. They're quite effective at disrupting cavalry charges, phalanxes, and archers.

IIRC, they also have the "fear" ability. And since the AI is poor at managing family members with unit stacks (hence no morale bonuses for the AI in most battles) they can easily start routing chain reactions in an enemy line.

[dismal]

3. Flanking with dogs.

When you think about it, it seems like it would be pretty hard to train dogs to run past a formation and attack it from behind.

[B-Aaaargh]

As Brutii I used my wardogs as part of an small-3 unit- size army
The army was made with :
a unit of roman cavalry
a unit of some infantry
and a unit of wardogs

I had about 3 or 4 of these tiny armies and they moved across gaul
to clean the land from small rebel forces or some warband units.
Wardogs are perfect for these tasks because no dogs are lost and at the beginning of every battle all dogs are alive again.

Ofcourse these ''squads'' were no match for huge armies so I withdrew them when a larger army attacked, but they were successful enough to use them again against the germans.

[Owen]

When you think about it, it seems like it would be pretty hard to train dogs to run past a formation and attack it from behind.

Yes, but I think he means enveloping them from your flanks while still under control of the handlers. As soon as you release the dogs, they just go for the enemy and you can't control them.

[dedmoroz]

Yes, but I think he means enveloping them from your flanks while still under control of the handlers. As soon as you release the dogs, they just go for the enemy and you can't control them.

Of cousre that is what i meant. Thought it was clear

[Nelson]

The dogs are a fun novelty unit that I use very sparingly.

In my current German campaign I have a single dog unit in each of two towns in northern Europe that I use to run down rebel peasants. Some of my mounted warriors are too proud to bother engaging such vermin!

[Byzantine Prince]

I dhave no idea what you guys are talking about. Dogs are the weakest unit to closest of my recollection. I never use them because they are so easily run down and killed. I'll try them again after reading all this praise but I doubt it'll change anything.

[randomn00b]

They're not amazing, but they are very, very specialized units. They're meat shields. They break up phalanxes well, they halt cavalry charges, and they require little micro.

Useless unless it's for a series of battles though, cuz you really need that replenish.

[Red Harvest]

I dhave no idea what you guys are talking about. Dogs are the weakest unit to closest of my recollection. I never use them because they are so easily run down and killed. I'll try them again after reading all this praise but I doubt it'll change anything.

They replenish, so losing dogs doesn't really matter much. They have a +12 attack and +2 charge, nothing to sneeze at in a replenishing unit. I think they also have some negative morale effects on nearby enemies, but it has been awhile since I toyed with them. They were pretty good at causing a flank to rout as I recall.

[Oaty]

They suck against armoured troops. They also can easily make elephants run amok.

What makes them deadly is a kill rate mod. The kill rate mod does not bring down the wardogs killrate as they are a specialty unit. The only reason I train them is when I'm against a fation with chariots.

[noramis]

dogs first through the gates are a good idea.

they are excellent troops, however, i don't build them because they take 2 turns to produce.

[Shadow]

I don’t really think that dogs are all that powerful but are really useful for disrupting enemy formation, absorbing cavalry charge, chasing after skirmishers and of course as frontal assault force during city assaults.

[Ar7]

Why do people say that wardogs are a myth unit? To my information rotweilers were bred by Romans for war, so if the Roman factions have them it is perfectly normal.

There is also a legend why rotweilers tails are being cut off. There was a Roman general who used to be the central figure for gossips, he got tired of this and to turn the attention of himself he cut his dogs tail off. Now the people said "Looks what he did to the dog!" and left all his deeds alone. ( This was a very short version of the legend )

But back on topic, I find that the dogs are very good at sieges, I set them loose in the middle of the battle, when my men have breached the walls and are trying hard to kill the enemy. The dogs route them faster and above that even chase and kill the routing enemy so I dont have to face them again or run my troops after them through the whole city

[aw89]

maybe i should train a unit for those pesky numidians, i hate all they'r ranged units...

[Didz]

I think it wrong to classify wardogs as a fanatsy unit. There is no doubt that dogs were used in ancient warfare in fact its where we get the phrase 'Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war'.

However, I think they were a very specialised unit nad certainly not a major feature of any battle. The historical articles I have read state that their most common usage was against cavalry where they were equipped with vertical blades strapped to their back and trained to run under and between the horses legs thus causing confusion and havoc amongst mounted formations.

The biggest problem however must have been enemy recognition and I suspect that once released wardogs ought to count as 'running amok' after their initial unit contact.

[master of the puppets]

[QUOTE=Didz]I think it wrong to classify wardogs as a fanatsy unit. There is no doubt that dogs were used in ancient warfare in fact its where we get the phrase 'Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war'.

true but if this is historicly sound then why did the greek plato say that and not a roman who had a wardog?

[master of the puppets]

uh crap
i need to learn a bit about posting
can you tell me where to learn?

[IrishMike]

uh crap
i need to learn a bit about posting
can you tell me where to learn?

Experience my boy, experience. Just use the quote button at the bottom of the post you wish to quote, its so much easier.

I find wardogs to be a nice little distraction, but nothing that should be considered powerful. Especially with no experience points, they are very weak, or so it appears to me.

[Didz]

I think it wrong to classify wardogs as a fanatsy unit. There is no doubt that dogs were used in ancient warfare in fact its where we get the phrase 'Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war'.

true but if this is historicly sound then why did the greek plato say that and not a roman who had a wardog?

To be honest I have no idea if the Roman's used wardogs and was as surprised as many others to find them included in the Roman OOB. My understanding was that they were used by some of the more eastern armies e.g. Syrian's, Hittites etc. However, it is equallly possible that many armies opened a battle by releasing wardogs in order to disrupt the enemy formations.

As for flaming pigs, I must admit I've never come across those in any of my reading and I am curious how a pig would be controlled once you had set fire to it. A more plausible option would be to have an animal pull a flaming incendary behind it, but even then i suspect panic would lead to it heading off in any direction but the one you wanted it to.

Has anyone got any historical references for flaming pigs???

[Oaty]

Has anyone got any historical references for flaming pigs???

There was a force that was besieged, and the besieged army was much better in quality. The only problem was that the besiegers had elephants wich kept them besieged. The general of the fort/city tarred some pigs and let slip the hogs of war. The elephants were scared and ran off and the siege was lifted

[Khorak]

Would they be good against the unarmoured chariots? They're so simple they just attack relentlessly so there's no problem of them milling about getting run down and not attacking, and chariots have no armour.

Will dogs be a useful silver bullet for trashing an irritating chariot unit? (discount British Chariots, which are pants against anything)

[King_Etzel]

Has anyone thought about whether the stats in the unit details scroll is for the dogs or the handlers? I dont think dogs wear armour...