Right of Return

[Don Corleone]

I'd like to ask everyone to please lay down the usual "pro-Israeli" and "pro-Palestinian" stances as best as you can for the purposes of this thread. We're not talking about whether Israel has a right to exist, or whether the world is better off with Palestinians without a homeland.

In almost every peace negotation, one of the big stumbling blocks is always the "Right of Return". I'm man enough to admit I don't understand this contentious issue anywhere near as much as I'd like. So I'd like to have a discussion about "Right of Return", nothing more, nothing less. What is it, is it feasible, is it fair, has it happened in other peace settlements? This is where I would like the discussion to focus.

If you want to bash Zionist scum or Jihadist maniacs, please, there's about 1000 threads that do that already. Just go resurrect one.

Anyway, here's my understanding of the "Right of Return" or ROR.

In 1967, during the 6 Days War, a lot of Palestinians left Israel (and a lot stayed). Those that left had nothing, they left all their proprety behind. Naturally, it's passed on to other hands over the past 40 years. Now, as part of the settlement, beyond the 2-states, the Palestinians want a clause that if they can make a verbal claim to a piece of property, it must automatically be returned to them. No argument, no appeal, if they say it's theirs, it's theirs.

Is this right? Has anything remotely like this ever happened in any war's concluding treaty?

[English assassin]

Surely a right of return and property rights are two different things?

I thought the right to return was strictly and only the right to physically return to the territory in question (I mean the state, not number 22 Acacia Avenue) and to be a citizen of the state administering the territory.

I also thought that what was unusual about the palestinian case is that the claim the right not only for people who were actually displaced (where I would have thought it is unarguably correct) but also their descendants (where I have to say I am very doubtful).

There is also the realpolitik, which is if anyone thinks the state of Israel is going to agree to have however many million refugees return to within its borders AND HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE they are not in the real world. That would be suicide for the state of Israel as it is presently governed.

That is not a criticism of Israel, merely an observation. But IMHO it means that any talk of RoR as the Palestinians imagine it is urinating upwind. You can like it or not like it but that is surely how it is.

[Don Corleone]

Interesting points, EA. I always took it it to mean return of property as well as return of national status. Most Palestinian refugees didn't live within Israel proper, most of them stayed (the Israeli Arabs you hear about). Most refugees came from Gaza and the West Bank, or so I thought.

Is that the idea behind Right of Return? They'll just got enough people within the borders of Israel with voting rights to vote it out of existence? I thought they were claiming 90% of the property in Haifa and Tel Aviv was really theirs....

[English assassin]

Is that the idea behind Right of Return? They'll just got enough people within the borders of Israel with voting rights to vote it out of existence? I thought they were claiming 90% of the property in Haifa and Tel Aviv was really theirs....

Well, call me an evil lawyer, but if the problem is merely property, there is the universal solution: cash. Let the current occupiers stay, and buy of the oldies, or put the oldies back in and pay off the new guys, whichever seems best, but its really just a price issue. I dare say the EU/USA would pony up.

On the other hand unless Israel wants to be voted out of existence (as a Jewish homeland, anyway) I don't see any solution to that one. And I don't see any good reason why Israel should agree to be voted out of existence. In fact if I was Israeli* I would say that having failed to wipe us of the map militarily this is just another gambit at the same objective.


* I'm not, for the benefit of newcomers.

[HoreTore]

A full return of the property taken in war could be considered just in theory. However, in the practical world, it would be an impossible task. A compromise by having the Israeli state pay a proper compensation for what was lost seems like the most reasonable thing to me.

[Marshal Murat]

Now, as part of the settlement, beyond the 2-states, the Palestinians want a clause that if they can make a verbal claim to a piece of property, it must automatically be returned to them. No argument, no appeal, if they say it's theirs, it's theirs.

I have a problem with that.
If I could do that, I'd be snatching every house I liked.

Wiki RoR

According to the extensive article, the Israeli 'RoR' is no limited to Jewish descendants.

The Israeli Law of Return does not categorically exclude non-Jews from immigrating to Israel. Any person who wishes to settle in Israel may do so. That person must meet the requirements set forth in the Law of Entry to Israel (1952) and the Law of Citizenship (1952), regarding naturalization. These requirements are similar to those stated in the laws of most countries such as:

1. they must have resided in Israel for three years out of five years preceding the day of submission of the application;
2. they are residing legally in Israel and have settled permanently or intend to settle permanently in Israel;
3. they have renounced their prior nationality, or have proved that they will cease to be foreign nationals upon becoming Israeli citizens.

Then a hypocritical argument by Palestinians about UN 194

The text of its Article 11: "[r]esolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property..."[12] The Arab states originally rejected this resolution, although today they often leverage it in arguing for a Palestinian right of return.

Then the 'Impact of Palestinian RoR'

If all the Palestinian refugees and their descendants (estimates range between 5 and 8 million people) were to return to their original home within Israel this would lead to a demographic shift which would end Israel's status as a Jewish state, as Israel's current population is composed of about 5.8 million Jews and 1.3 million Muslim and Christian Palestinian Arabs. This is the main cause for Israel's continued resistance to the so-called Palestinian "right of return".

Then the irony of the entire situation.

Supporters of the right to return claim that if a Jew born in America has the right to immigrate to Palestine/Israel, a Palestinian born in a refugee camp should have the right to return to his or her homeland. They also point to a June 2003 survey of Palestinians living in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan and Lebanon, which found that only 10% of those surveyed stated that they would become residents of Israel if given a Choice

URL insert is author note.


In light of the Wiki article and my own personal feelings, I suggest that a 'limited right of return' be enacted.
If a Palestinian refugee or descendant of refugee has land wills, grants, other documents, and it can be verified then they should be allowed back to either
1. Take possession of said plot of land, and all assets.
2. Take a monetary compensations.



Reminds me of the Farfour episode.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If Jews have a right of return based on nothing legally or even ethnically tangible why shouldn't Palastinians have the same?

That's the real question.

[Marshal Murat]

If Jews have a right of return based on nothing legally or even ethnically tangible why shouldn't Palastinians have the same?

Supporters of the right to return claim that if a Jew born in America has the right to immigrate to Palestine/Israel, a Palestinian born in a refugee camp should have the right to return to his or her homeland.

We are all stuck.
Moderation is the key. If you give to much, then the Jewish majority will become a minority and there will be deadly consequences. To little and you have the current situation.

[Brenus]

Well, I had to deal with the “Right of Return” for another conflict, the Former Yugoslav conflicts…
In theory all Agreements signed accepted the principal. However, the implementation is a little bit more complex, especially when the house or property was transformed in parking spots, are shelters for other refugees, etc…
Most of the time, it finished by compensation, selling of property, or exchange of properties…
Sometimes it turns ugly… Refugees coming back home then trailed for War-crimes but local court, attacks by neighbours during the night with full knowledge of the police, pure erasing from the local town hall and property office…
Ok, have to go to work, to be continued…