Stronger Player - Turtle vs. Hare

[Didz]

I think the majority of us agree that the Hare will always win.

However, if you think about it this would create a real problem if CA ever get their finger out and produce an MP campaign option. I certainly have no interest in playing an MP game against a load of Blitzers, and yet I suspect that this would be the only likely outcome.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think the majority of us agree that the Hare will always win.

However, if you think about it this would create a real problem if CA ever get their finger out and produce an MP campaign option. I certainly have no interest in playing an MP game against a load of Blitzers, and yet I suspect that this would be the only likely outcome.

Hehehe how ironic. I'm actually going to have to side against the blitzers on that one.

Blitzing works best against the incompetent AI.

Two or more competing blitzers would destroy or cripple each other, leaving the pacifist in a better position.

Think about it: two blitzers attack one another. They move behind each other's front lines and go for each other's soft, relatively undefended cities. Then, after they have both crippled each other's economies and armies, the turtle comes in with a built up economy and a fresh stack of troops and annihilates both of them.

If I were playing a REAL multiplayer game, with more than one opponent, and my opponents were competent, I would be FAR more cautious. Humans know how to counterattack and blitzing leaves your cities undefended.

This is the only situation where I give an edge to cautious play. Not pacifistic, mind you, but cautious.

If a blitzer goes against the turtle, the turtle would hold him off while the other blitzer annihilated the first one. Meanwhile the turtle has a built up economy and few military losses, and the surviving turtle has a less developed and more spread apart empire, leaving him ripe for a counterstrike.

If the situation is One blitzer versus One turtle, turtle loses. Two or more blitzers? Anyone's game, with an edge to cautious play.

[Atreides]

If the situation is One blitzer versus One turtle, turtle loses. Two or more blitzers? Anyone's game, with an edge to cautious play.

Imo the real turtle would lose, but if your playing an expansionist turtle style your going to win, that's for sure.

Able to do quick conquer and meanwhile build a rocking economy with all the fancy stuff. I am now on a campaign with the Byzantium Empire and while getting in the so called rich Italian area I found there basic's poor.....

[Askthepizzaguy]

If we describe an expansionist turtle as a "moderate", then yes, I agree.

Focusing half on perfectionism and half on expansion, florin-wise, is the best balance in a multi-human player game.

[ForgotMyOldNick]

Seems fairly straight forward to me...

You camp; you pay florins accumulatively for your security.

You move; and win those occasional badly weighted battles as you may and reap the rewards of a sacking that would more than compensate you for your efforts.

With the exception of silly ai .. for instance: Inquisitors being invincible to assassins' blades and taking out your General instead...

[sapi]

Hmm.

An interesting question.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and bet on the turtle (in a one-on-one campaign situation).

I don't care how good you may be at blitzing, coming up against a player in a defensive position is vastly different to fighting the AI. A competent turtler could easily fight at each good defensive position leading into their territory and cause a series of pyrrhic victories that would strain the resources of the hare.

Considering that in such a match-up, both sides would be advancing into rebel territory at the same rate behind the battle line, I'd have to say that a strategy of building up would win in the end.

The key difference as I see it is that, as ATPG pointed out himself, the hare needs to take a city and sack it in order to maintain inertia. Unfortunately, such a strategy relies upon the turtler not holding them up out of their heartland.

The AI may fail on this count; but I sincerely doubt that the player would.

[Bob the Insane]

I think we need to define the parameters of the discussion point...

Are we taking about a hypothetical Turtle vs Hare game (hypothical because you can't play player vs player battles in hotseat mode).

This could be worked out I guess in a test MP battle assaulting a settlement where the attacker had the type of army associated with a rusher in the early stages of the game, and the defender had the similar for a defending force and see who wins. Because the success of the Hare would be dependant on being able to take those settlements from the defender.

From a strategy map perspective the Hare would have a big advantage in that he could rapidly grow at the expence of the AI factions so rapidly becoming too large for the turtle to defend against. That is unless the turtle was to take advantage of the relatively undended settlements left behind by the Hare, but that would not be very turtle like.

There is no arguement about who would beat the game faster on an individual basis, but then the turtle might win the "value for money" category...

Who has the most fun is based too much on personal opinion to judge...

[Mangudai]

Hmm.

An interesting question.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and bet on the turtle (in a one-on-one campaign situation).

I don't care how good you may be at blitzing, coming up against a player in a defensive position is vastly different to fighting the AI. A competent turtler could easily fight at each good defensive position leading into their territory and cause a series of pyrrhic victories that would strain the resources of the hare.

Considering that in such a match-up, both sides would be advancing into rebel territory at the same rate behind the battle line, I'd have to say that a strategy of building up would win in the end.

The key difference as I see it is that, as ATPG pointed out himself, the hare needs to take a city and sack it in order to maintain inertia. Unfortunately, such a strategy relies upon the turtler not holding them up out of their heartland.

The AI may fail on this count; but I sincerely doubt that the player would.

It is incorrect to assume that both sides would be advancing into rebel territory at the same rate behind the battle line. Obviously the Hare has more troops and is more aggressive.

The turtle may be good at holding defensive positions. Let him! The Hare can menace with a smaller force, or disappear for a couple turns and then come back. The defenders options are lost by his own choice to stand around and wait for the other guy to attack.

The hare does not have to be better at fighting battles to win. He wins on the strategic map. He wins space, tempo, and material.

[Atreides]

If we describe an expansionist turtle as a "moderate", then yes, I agree.

Focusing half on perfectionism and half on expansion, florin-wise, is the best balance in a multi-human player game.

If we describe an expansionist turtle as a "moderate", then yes, I agree.

Focusing half on perfectionism and half on expansion, florin-wise, is the best balance in a multi-human player game.

Ok. Imo this style also enables the really great feeling your engineering an empire.....

I am now playing with the Byzies, my former crownprice John is still alive and kicking (he conquered and babysite just five cities, transfermorming his baby-sit into a march to Jerusalem and then Egypt…. (18 years for the invasion of my beloved Mongolian friends).

I already got the 45 – province map and I was still able to build an nearly every turn in every city/castle the things I wanted…. That is imo a nice combined turtle / blizz.

[PseRamesses]

Ahh, well, better come out of the closet... I´m a turtle too.

Might I recommend ReBerengarios Anno Domini mod. It´s nearly impossible to blitz in that mod. Your rep will drop from Immaculate to Despicable with increased rebellions for each decrease as a result. It´s also heavily scripted which I looove. Try it, its a must for turtles IMHO.

[Bob the Insane]

Ahh, well, better come out of the closet... I´m a turtle too.

Might I recommend ReBerengarios Anno Domini mod. It´s nearly impossible to blitz in that mod. Your rep will drop from Immaculate to Despicable with increased rebellions for each decrease as a result. It´s also heavily scripted which I looove. Try it, its a must for turtles IMHO.

Sorry for OT but I didn't realise there where any versions of this available yet?